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AllinLife
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09-06-2004, 07:04 PM
Post subject: KK/AA
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 530
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I come across this situation many times.
I raise 3~5 BB and get 1~2 callers,
flop comes rainbow/far from straight with all card below AA/KK
and my opponents raise the pot or go ai.
I've seen TT~KK's do this, but also those people who flopped set.
is this dilema similar to the KK ai preflop where you will profit more
on the long run? or is there a way to ditinguish sets :s
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Personally, I'd never shove in with a set on a rainbow flop, unless I had a good read that the guy had an overpair. So, first you should put it in your notes on the player, like you would on any really strange play. Next, think about if you could've gave away your hand in anyway (i.e. betting 5xBB when typically betting 3xBB on every other hand). Unless a player is pretty fishy, he's not going to shove in with a set without a draw on the board unless he thinks he can get a call for some reason.
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Makana
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14
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Sets are really hard to read, especially online, I think.
I've run into this situation many times. And generally, unless I can come up with a reasonable 2-pair hand that they would call a pre-flop raise with, I call or push all-in myself. If someone is lucky enough to catch a low set against my AA/KK I'm generally just going to have to pay them.
Usually, because you have raised pre-flop, there is enough money in the pot to enduce someone to make a play at it. If they are acting before you, people will oftentimes go all in on a semi-bluff or even middle pair hoping that you missed with Big or Miss Slick and they can just pick up the pot.
Remember, many books out there teach people that rag flops with no obvious draws are good ones to bluff / semi bluff at.
This bet can also be an overpair to the board but obviously still under your AA/KK. Othertimes it is the top pair with an Ace kicker. So there's a lot of hands that players will often go all in with here that you have beat.
Obviously, you have to worry about sets or 2-pair. But you still have outs for those, so even if you're behind you're going to outdraw sometimes. I'd say, in the end, unless I have a good read on the player, I call this bet.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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Quote:
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Personally, I'd never shove in with a set on a rainbow flop, unless I had a good read that the guy had an overpair.
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As usual michael states my view better than I could.
Tend to agree that an overpair or junk are about the only two hands you can put them on.
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Krapp
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09-17-2004, 06:21 PM
Post subject: Re: KK/AA
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#5 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
I come across this situation many times.
I raise 3~5 BB and get 1~2 callers,
flop comes rainbow/far from straight with all card below AA/KK
and my opponents raise the pot or go ai.
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I think your ok to call the AI. However its dependant on you knowing your opps. Going all-in on a set from opps is a bad play unless they know youll call them.
I would also guess these folks are just as likely to call your all-in preflop. If thats the case, your better off, limping/all-in, or all-in. Its not a great play but if there are known loose/aggressive players that will call all-in with crap preflop, its your best play.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
on the long run? or is there a way to ditinguish sets :s
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Assuming a good player... someone who slow plays them will bet unusually large on the turn and look for action for all-in oppurtunities. Sets are easier to tell if the flop looks raggy so the big bets from opps are either 2pair or sets. Folks with sets will want to have large multiple-pots and wont make unusual bets in these situations unless they know they will get play or if they are afraid of strong draws. Folks with 2-pair will be more willing to cut the field down since they arent great in multi-way pots.
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michael1123
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09-18-2004, 03:47 AM
Post subject: Re: KK/AA
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#6 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
I would also guess these folks are just as likely to call your all-in preflop. If thats the case, your better off, limping/all-in, or all-in. Its not a great play but if there are known loose/aggressive players that will call all-in with crap preflop, its your best play.
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Krapp ... think about what you're saying here. If you know your opponents will call with crappy cards, don't shove all in preflop with AA or KK? Are you kidding me?
Plus, limping in and then going all in at the flop is probably the worst option, not the best. First, you have a tiny pot since it wasn't raised preflop. Next, you're usually giving your stack to hands that have you beat at the flop (two pair or a set - both more likely since you didn't bet it hard preflop), since you're unlikely to improve, all to try and win this tiny unraised pot. And also, even the crazy loose players won't call without some kind of pair or draw on the flop, which would give them 5 outs to hit 2 pair and more outs for most draws, which is better odds than they had to outdraw you preflop, if they had two unders.
Playing it straight (making a solid raise preflop, bet the flop hard, etc.) would be a better option than this. But again, if I know they'll call a preflop all in, I'd gladly go that route instead. With AA or KK, I'll bet the most that I think I can, while still getting a call.
Edit: Whoops, I misread what you were saying, so you can ignore the part about shoving all in preflop. But the limp and then all in post-flop part still is relevant.
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Krapp
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09-18-2004, 07:05 AM
Post subject: Re: KK/AA
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#7 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Krapp ... think about what you're saying here. If you know your opponents will call with crappy cards, don't shove all in preflop with AA or KK? Are you kidding me?
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Uhm maybe my post is confusing, but I recommend going all-in on the preflop if you know your opps are likely to call vs playing the hand on the flop.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Plus, limping in and then going all in at the flop is probably the worst option, not the best.
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I think I need to post more clearly. Limp/allin is meant to be limp, hope for a raise, then all-in on preflop. Not all-in on the flop. That is bad unless you put most of your chips on the preflop. In that case, your pot committed and probably should throw the rest in.
I read through the rest of your comments. I think we are on the same page.
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