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KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high

  
 
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 05:44 AM     Post subject: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($1.10)
UTG ($4.19)
Hero (MP) ($6.03)
CO ($1.83)
Button ($0.78)
SB ($2.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with ,
1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 3 folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) , , (2 players)
BB bets $0.12, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.17 | Rake: $0

I put him on an A or 7.

I was tempted to re-raise.

I had no reads on him however, as he was new to the table.
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 05:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Here is another similar encounter:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($4.02)
Hero (Button) ($5.92)
SB ($2.31)
BB ($5.03)
UTG ($3.46)

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.52

Flop: ($1.23) , , (2 players)
BB bets $0.44, Hero raises to $3.98, BB raises to $4.43 (All-In), Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($10.09) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.09) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.09 | Rake: $0.50

Again, I had no reads, but I went with my instinct and I thought he would have jacks.
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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Erpel
Old 01-19-2010, 11:31 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:
What you are doing here is weak tight. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's being so keen on folding to stay out of trouble that an observant opponent could definitely exploit it.

Know that a board with three different card values (like K93r) can be hit by 9 individual cards (the other three K, 9 and 3 suits) where as a board with a pair (like A77) can be hit by 5 individual cards (three aces and two sevens). This almost halves the cards available in opponent hand ranges that hit the board. For this reason a paired board is considered a good bluffing board - the opponent is very unlikely to have been improved by the board and is therefore quite likely to fold to a bet. (So yeah, he could be bluffing)

His bet size is normal. It's not "high". You could argue that bet sizing on a paired board could be 1/2 PSB instead of 2/3 PSB that we see here, but even that argument is likely on a too high level for this particular opponent and rather something to consider in your own hands.

It's true that he could have an A or a 7. But he could also have two clubs or a bluff.

Putting him on an A or 7 you were tempted to re-raise? Now that doesn't make sense. If you said you were suspecting a bluff that would make more sense, but thinking to raise into what you think is a better hand is not a logical impulse. Impulse well mastered though (and that is good). Sometimes in poker it is correct to fold the best hand. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case here, but it is an indicator of your growing discipline and self-mastery that you are able to fold a pretty-looking KK in this situation.

A solid principle that is especially applicable to small pots is this: When in doubt, fold.

For a beginning player to find a fold in this situation is good. As you improve you will find situations similar to this where it is more profitable to call or raise, but before you put in the money you need a damn good reason. Absent that reason, fold is correct.

Hand 2:
Only similar in that you are holding a pair in both situations. In Hand 1 there was an overcard and a board pair and a possible flush draw. In Hand 2 there is no overcard and no board pair and no possible flush draw.

Note that the opponents 3bet size preflop is entirely unreasonable. This often means one of two types of hands. One is the AA/KK type hand that is just looking to get all the money in the middle and doesn't even consider how it looks. Another is the AK/JJ/TT type hand which is strong but where he is afraid of being pushed off his strong hand and therefore bets big enough that you will fold a lot, because even though you fold he will at least win the hand with his hand. Strong but vulnerable hands like that are often traumatic to beginners. I would not necessarily limit his hand range to these hands but they are definitely a solid portion of it.

Given the flop and the fact that he made outsized bets pre-flop his flop bet size is once again odd. It's small. So he wants to get called? Probably more likely to have an overpair that he feels good about than to be bluffing with AK.

Your raise is horrible. Horribly sized that is. You are raising $3.54 into $2.11 - almost half again the size of the pot. You're not making him fold one of the pairs that beat you - but you might manage to fold out a pair that you beat anyway so you don't get full value from it.

I thought he would have jacks, you say. Here's a problem. You can't just focus on one particular hand that you think he has and ignore all the other hands he could have that he would have played the exact same way.

My estimate on his bet sizing is that pre-flop I would weigh AK/JJ/TT higher than AA/KK because of beginner traumas with strong but vulnerable hands and not wanting to see folds when you are holding AA/KK. With the post flop bet I would flip that judgement around and say he's now more likely to be holding AA/KK and be keen to lure the last of your money out where JJ/TT/AK would tend to bet bigger to give you a chance to fold better or fold before you improve to better.
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 11:46 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erpel
Your raise is horrible. Horribly sized that is. You are raising $3.54 into $2.11 - almost half again the size of the pot. You're not making him fold one of the pairs that beat you - but you might manage to fold out a pair that you beat anyway so you don't get full value from it.
So in future, bet like two thirds of the pot?

My reasoning for such a horrible raise was simple, if flawed:

I didn't want him to have a chance to see the river or the turn without going all-in.
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Outlaw
Old 01-19-2010, 12:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Stop playing the cards and develop reads.. even at 2NL
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 12:51 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
Stop playing the cards and develop reads.. even at 2NL
Could you elaborate on this please? I'm not asking HOW do I develop reads, I'm asking you for working examples of what you mean.

Thanks.
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Outlaw
Old 01-19-2010, 01:20 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I was just asking that you post what reads you had while playing the hand. Just playing the cards in front of you on X board will lead to a lot of frustration. There is no formula on what to do with this hand on that board etc., you have to play the player. KK is still a very strong hand on that board.. but not if the guy is 3/3 and/or donk leads his strong hands and checks his weak ones (based on history) for example.

Make sure you first establish a range and what you think he will do with that range under what circumstances.. and you use reads to modify this. Then decide what the best action is in your opinion to make the most money (or lose the least in some cases.)
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 01:40 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
I was just asking that you post what reads you had while playing the hand. Just playing the cards in front of you on X board will lead to a lot of frustration. There is no formula on what to do with this hand on that board etc., you have to play the player. KK is still a very strong hand on that board.. but not if the guy is 3/3 and/or donk leads his strong hands and checks his weak ones (based on history) for example.
To be fair I did say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker

I had no reads on him however, as he was new to the table.
Quote:
Again, I had no reads, but I went with my instinct and I thought he would have jacks.
Thanks for the rest of your post anyway. Was helpful.
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Erpel
Old 01-19-2010, 02:18 PM #9 (permalink)  
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When you bet you are typically looking to get more money in the middle iwth the best hand (so you want him to call as large an amount as possible) or get him to fold a hand that is better than yours (so you want to risk the smallest amount that will cause him to fold). As a rule of thumb normal bet sizes vary between half pot and full pot. There are specific types of bets that are below half pot and above full pot, but unless you are making one of those specific plays with a plan it is generally prudent to stay with half to full pot. Just betting 2/3 pot every time you decide to bet is not a big mistake - and probably a much smaller mistake than varying your bets wildly.
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!Luck
Old 01-19-2010, 02:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Easypoker,

Sometimes, if not all the time, when we say reads we mean ranges. Put together a full range, not just "i feel he has jacks". For the first hand it could be something as wide as 22+,AQs+. And then you figure out what your equity and make a decision.

!luck
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 02:32 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erpel
Just betting 2/3 pot every time you decide to bet is not a big mistake
This is what I usually do, again dependent on the opponent, table etc. Incidentally, I never used to do this until I watched bigspenda's videos on micro stakes.
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spoonitnow
Old 01-19-2010, 04:20 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Again, I had no reads, but I went with my instinct and I thought he would have jacks.
Look man, I've tried to tell you this before, and I'm going to try to tell you again, but if you're not going to listen then I can't do anything for you. You have to put your opponent on a range if you want to make it anywhere in this game. "I thought he would have jacks" is not an acceptable range.

If you don't, then you're not going to make any real money and most of your posts will be useless gestures that will not help you or anyone else. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 04:43 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Alright, this is the last time I'll do that sort of thing.
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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XTR1000
Old 01-19-2010, 06:21 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I spent over an hour of my very morning to post an article on how to put people on ranges. Read it, come back here and we´ll have a constructive and friendly discussion on how these hands could have been played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
yo
 
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d0zer
Old 01-19-2010, 06:31 PM     Post subject: Re: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I put him on an A or 7.

I was tempted to re-raise.
LOL.

Think about this for 10 seconds, then tell me why it makes absolutely no sense.
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EasyPoker
Old 01-19-2010, 07:13 PM     Post subject: Re: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I put him on an A or 7.

I was tempted to re-raise.
LOL.

Think about this for 10 seconds, then tell me why it makes absolutely no sense.
I swear I meant I was tempted UNTIL I put him on those cards.
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 01-20-2010, 08:38 AM #17 (permalink)  
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why would raising the flop on hand 1 would be a bad play?..

i can see how calling would be a bad play... i think hand 1 flop is a raise or fold situation and when in doubt i'd fold...

given stack sizes i probably would've folded to be honest...
 
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d0zer
Old 01-22-2010, 03:04 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
why would raising the flop on hand 1 would be a bad play?..

i can see how calling would be a bad play... i think hand 1 flop is a raise or fold situation and when in doubt i'd fold...

given stack sizes i probably would've folded to be honest...
Calling > folding >>>>>>>>> raising

raising makes no sense. you're wasting a hand with decent showdown value by turning it into a bluff. If you wanna bluff raise this flop do it with a hand like 22 or 45s that's behind all the pocket pairs he's donking on this flop.

Not that I'd advocate that without a read he's donking flop with air.
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inV1NCEble
Old 01-22-2010, 07:44 PM     Post subject: Re: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I put him on an A or 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I was tempted to re-raise.
Do you understand the rules of poker?

Edit: Srr, Dozer already saw that one

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!
 
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EasyPoker
Old 01-22-2010, 07:48 PM     Post subject: Re: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inV1NCEble
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I put him on an A or 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I was tempted to re-raise.
Do you understand the rules of poker?
As much as you understand the difference between rules and effective ways of playing the game.
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inV1NCEble
Old 01-22-2010, 07:50 PM #21 (permalink)  
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I meant which hands beat which => the rules..

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!
 
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spoonitnow
Old 01-22-2010, 07:52 PM     Post subject: Re: KK with A77 on flop - villain bets high #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inV1NCEble
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I put him on an A or 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I was tempted to re-raise.
Do you understand the rules of poker?

Edit: Srr, Dozer already saw that one
lol yeah that's why I went to post in this thread and just said fuck it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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inV1NCEble
Old 01-22-2010, 07:54 PM #23 (permalink)  
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yep

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!
 
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EasyPoker
Old 01-22-2010, 08:37 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 the reraise thing was supposed to go b4 assholes
[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
 
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spoonitnow
Old 01-23-2010, 12:31 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
the reraise thing was supposed to go b4 assholes
Despite being a comeback remark, this is an EXCELLENT opportunity for you to realize the flaws in your thought process (the same flaws I keep harping on over and over when I tell you to put your opponent on a range).

The thought process should be 1) Put your opponent on a range, followed by 2) Decide on your action based on #1 and opponent tendencies. Here you tried to do #2 before doing #1, and it simply cannot work that way if you want to play good poker. All of your posts that I've seen ever have shown that you try to think of what to do before you think of your opponent's range (if you ever make it to thinking of your opponent's range).

Hopefully this shows you why it can't work the other way around and will stick this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:15 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
why would raising the flop on hand 1 would be a bad play?..

i can see how calling would be a bad play... i think hand 1 flop is a raise or fold situation and when in doubt i'd fold...

given stack sizes i probably would've folded to be honest...
Calling > folding >>>>>>>>> raising

raising makes no sense. you're wasting a hand with decent showdown value by turning it into a bluff. If you wanna bluff raise this flop do it with a hand like 22 or 45s that's behind all the pocket pairs he's donking on this flop.

Not that I'd advocate that without a read he's donking flop with air.
are we really gonna just flat call him until the river then if he bets again on the turn or...

i really do hate to call here because i dunno what i'm doing on the turn... if another ace or a club comes then what?..
 
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ljove
Old 01-23-2010, 03:41 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Here is another similar encounter:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($4.02)
Hero (Button) ($5.92)
SB ($2.31)
BB ($5.03)
UTG ($3.46)

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.52

Flop: ($1.23) , , (2 players)
BB bets $0.44, Hero raises to $3.98, BB raises to $4.43 (All-In), Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($10.09) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.09) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.09 | Rake: $0.50

Again, I had no reads, but I went with my instinct and I thought he would have jacks.
Players at Stars 0.01-0.02playing lot of crap hands and bluffing a lot too.
I take a lot of money with one pair from guys who are just pushing with air.
I don't know what they are thinking but I ;ike their play LOL
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Stacks
Old 01-23-2010, 07:37 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 I was gonna post tearing into your logic for hand 1, but it seems that has been covered...

Raising that flop is pretty bad. A worse hand is very unlikely to call a raise, and a better hand probably doesn't fold as you are repping such a narrow range. As dozer said: calling > folding >>>>>>>> raising. If you are raising here you want to either do it so he will fold better hands that he could be donking with, or with a solid hand so he can call all his worse hands. However, as Erpel pointed out, a paired board doesn't hit players as often as unpaired boards, and therefore he could concieveably be donking alot of air hands here, or weak made hands to "see where he is", that would fold to a raise. I think I would call almost all hands I wanted to continue with here. Only raising if I had a dynamic with the player.

And yeah, ranges please.
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Stacks
Old 01-23-2010, 07:40 PM #29 (permalink)  
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 If you really want to improve, you need to go beyond just posting hands, reading the advice, and moving on. One of the best ways to improve is to analyze your own hands. That is to take a hand like the KK hand, form differing ranges for the villain, do a little math to figure out the appropriate decision based on the ranges, see the EV of those plays, your approximate equity against his possible ranges, then post that information here along with the hand. So not only do you get feedback on the decision in the hand, you also get feedback on your ranges/logic/math/theory. It will help loads.

It's a lot of work, and probably isn't necessary to beat the micros, but as you progress, some of your villains will be doing all this, and if you don't improve quicker than them, then you fall behind.
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littleogre
Old 01-24-2010, 08:14 AM #30 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 With no stats on hand 1 i would call his flop bet and reevaluate the turn. Lots of people like to fire at a pared flop. If he bets the turn i would likely fold.
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