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KK in a 4b pot 25nl

  
 
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thelorax
Old 06-02-2010, 06:54 PM     Post subject: KK in a 4b pot 25nl #1 (permalink)  
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 SO it wont let me post the HH as this is my first post.

Villain is like 20/13 with a 70% fold to 3b and 80agf over like 70...a few hands ago:

PokerStars Game #44949991786: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 2010/06/02 0:59:27 PT [2010/06/02 3:59:27 ET]
Table 'Aaltje' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Hunt4theWeak ($21.35 in chips)
Seat 2: madlion69 ($39.95 in chips)
Seat 3: hero ($32.10 in chips)
Seat 5: galumoz ($7.35 in chips)
Seat 6: TheFirst001 ($17.70 in chips)
Seat 7: seserman01 ($40.15 in chips)
Seat 8: yTuJIu3aToP ($26.95 in chips)
Seat 9: vcci ($31.10 in chips)
madlion69: posts small blind $0.10
HERO: posts big blind $0.25
Johnytop: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Ah Ad]
galumoz: folds
TheFirst001: folds
seserman01: raises $0.60 to $0.85
yTuJIu3aToP: folds
vcci: calls $0.85
Hunt4theWeak: folds
madlion69: folds
HERO: raises $2.50 to $3.35
seserman01: calls $2.50
vcci: folds
*** FLOP *** [Tc 8s 2h]
HERO: checks
seserman01: checks
*** TURN *** [Tc 8s 2h] [5c]
HERO: bets $5
seserman01: calls $5
*** RIVER *** [Tc 8s 2h 5c] [8d]
HERO: bets $10
seserman01: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [Ah Ad] (two pair, Aces and Eights)
seserman01: mucks hand
HERO collected $35.85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.65 | Rake $1.80
Board [Tc 8s 2h 5c 8d]
Seat 1: Hunt4theWeak (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: madlion69 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: HERO(big blind) showed [Ah Ad] and won ($35.85) with two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 5: galumoz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TheFirst001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: seserman01 mucked [3c 3s]
Seat 8: yTuJIu3aToP folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: vcci folded before Flop

The HH showed that he had pocket 3's here..guess he thot this was AK alot, idk.

so this next hand is a different table but same villain.

Range pre: AQ+ 88+? (he called my 3bet in previous hand with 3's so yeahh.. i assume hes folding his lower pp's to a 4bet )
I prob should have 4 bet bigger but it is what it is now.

PokerStars Game #44950089668: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 2010/06/02 1:05:33 PT [2010/06/02 4:05:33 ET]
Table 'Alstede' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Ljuti_Gusar ($58.95 in chips)
Seat 3: HERO ($27.05 in chips)
Seat 5: madlion69 ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: VeeJayJay ($23.15 in chips)
Seat 7: timpson06 ($50.05 in chips)
Seat 8: seserman01 ($25 in chips)
Seat 9: ryang421 ($25.35 in chips)
seserman01: posts small blind $0.10
ryang421: posts big blind $0.25
NPIW: sits out
cchggg: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Kc Kd]
Ljuti_Gusar: folds
HERO: raises $0.50 to $0.75
madlion69: folds
VeeJayJay: folds
timpson06: folds
timpson06 leaves the table
Chaman2281 joins the table at seat #7
seserman01: raises $1.75 to $2.50
ryang421: folds
HERO: raises $3.75 to $6.25
seserman01: calls $3.75
*** FLOP *** [Ac 4h 3h]
seserman01: checks
HERO: checks

ok i check back the flop cause the A is scary as it hits a good portion of his 4b calling range. Should I be betting here? Im kind of lost..

*** TURN *** [Ac 4h 3h] [9d]
seserman01: bets $18.75 and is all-in
HERO??

Thinking about it i feel like hes not checking an A on this flop all that often if he hit. the board is pretty drawy but idk. when he shoves this turn I put him on 99+ cause he prob doesnt think im checking back this flop with an A so i guess he could be jamming here with like TT-QQ, some draws (hes really agg), and possi AK-AQ. I guess theres some air sometimes too. basically I feel im beat by a good bit of his range ( im kind of struggling to put him on a realistic shoving range tho) ..but something just seems kinda weird about his line.
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Imthenewfish
Old 06-02-2010, 10:25 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Gonna try to make this post more pretty so you can actually get responses

Gonna put your reads/stats here because I don't think people will read your post through

"Villain is like 20/13 with a 70% fold to 3b and 80agf over like 70...a few hands ago:"

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($21.35)
SB ($39.95)
BB ($32.10)
UTG ($17.70)
MP1 ($40.15)
MP2 ($26.95)
CO ($31.10)

Preflop: with A, A
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.85, 1 fold, CO calls $0.85, 2 folds, HERO raises to $3.35,MP1 calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($7.65) 10, 8, 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)
HERO checks, MP1 checks

Turn: ($7.65) 5HERO bets $5, MP1 calls $5

River: ($17.65) 8 HERO bets $10, MP1 calls $10

Total pot: $37.65
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Imthenewfish
Old 06-02-2010, 10:26 PM #3 (permalink)  
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BTW don't post hand results

Once again, putting in your reads
"Range pre: AQ+ 88+? (he called my 3bet in previous hand with 3's so yeahh.. i assume hes folding his lower pp's to a 4bet )
I prob should have 4 bet bigger but it is what it is now. "

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($58.95)
MP1 ($27.05)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($23.15)
Button ($50.05)
SB ($25)
BB ($25.35)

Preflop: We have KK here, I don't know why it's not showing up
1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, 3 folds, SB raises to $2.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.25, SB calls $3.75

Flop: ($12.75) A, 4, 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($12.75) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $18.75 (All-In)

Hero??
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Imthenewfish
Old 06-02-2010, 10:50 PM #4 (permalink)  
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H1) I don't get flop check
H2) Bet more for value against this player preflop, I think he has some ace that he won't fold here more often than he'll call with a lower PP, and your flop check should garnish you a lot of respect if he was paying attention when you checked your aces on 10 high flop
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kmind
Old 06-02-2010, 11:58 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 please please please tell me your FTR name is from the comcast commercials a few years ago. I probably bet flop small given previous hand read.
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thelorax
Old 06-03-2010, 12:44 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 in hand 1 I checked the flop cause hes been way agro and i was hoping he'd spaz but its pretty dry/doesnt hit his 3b calling rage. so in retrospect it rly wasnt a great check.id be ore inclined to check if a K or Q came off.i just hoped by checking he would take away over pairs frm my range/get some value from the rest of his range later.
hand 2 i know i should have raised more pre.. but im just confused whether to bet this flop or just check it back. NEwFish, your saying that his range is weighted more toward AX's ? like at-ak of hearts maybe? now that hes shoved i dont really know what to make of it. i guess i should have bet the flop behind and fold to a raise?
EDIT:ty for converting the hh's newfish
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Imthenewfish
Old 06-03-2010, 01:25 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I was saying to check back this flop because you'll lose more money when he has an ace than the value you'll extract from when he has smaller pocket pairs. However, I'm not entirely sure that this is true because of how he played pocket 3's in the earlier hand. Cbetting for value may be profitable against this player, but it's too thin imo, even if i am a nit. To answer your question if you're going to bet this flop it is a b/f. Fold to the shove as played imo.
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thelorax
Old 06-03-2010, 02:21 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 oops i didnt refresh before posting earlier.
Kmind i know the commercials your talking about i think.. the ones with the deer/the indian dude/that caveman?? my names not frm those..we can just pretend tho lol.

ummm so for the hand b/f flop to avoid the awkward situation that occurred or should we just be checking here trying to SD cheap?
also if we do decide to bet this flop and he decides to call, what should our plan for the next 2 streets be? his range is so wide/effed here based on that previous hand.

also i showed the results of the 1st hand cause i thought they were pretty relevant in making a decision here.

sry if im not making sense/repeating myself or whatever im at school rite now
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Imthenewfish
Old 06-03-2010, 03:53 AM #9 (permalink)  
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They were relevant but you could have just said something like, "Villain has called down bets after I checked the flop with pocket 3's" or something on the second one and not said it was related to the first hand; just you won't get very straightforward advice if you tell people what the results were. If we do get to SD cheaply we most likely have the best hand, so it's pretty much between betting as a bluff, or betting for value. If neither option is better than checking and folding to future bets, then you played it correctly. In my first actual analysis post i said that I don't think he is folding any ace that he flatted a 4b with, so betting as a bluff is a BAD idea. However, against this particular opponent, betting for value may be correct if he is calling any pocket pair here. So when we bet, sometimes he has an ace, and sometimes he has a pocket pair. I think he's going to have an ace more often on this flop than call our barrels with a pocket pair, I mean cmmon, the way he played his pocket 3's was just silly.
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kmind
Old 06-03-2010, 02:19 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Sorry I misread the hand completely. I also realized your name is from something else.

I'd check back flop and now just fold to his shove in the second hand. Sorry for the confusion, I thought you just 3bet him preflop in the second one which would allow for a lot of PP to be in his range in which you can get value from apparently because of the first hand by betting the flop.

But you are one of the rare first posters to post correctly and we appreciate that for sure. Keep posting!
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Hoopy
Old 06-03-2010, 05:12 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Good first post. Flop check back is fine as we can't bet for value + turning our hand into a bluff is not good. We need to be good 37% of the time to make this call. Tbh doing some stove analysis shows it's pretty difficult for him to be shoving enough worse hands and draws for you to call.
 
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thelorax
Old 06-04-2010, 03:41 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 Ok cool thanks guys makes good sense to just c/f here against his 4b flatting/jamming range.

ive never messed with stove..i have a mac, do they have a version for it?


*SPOILER*

i ended up thinking about it for a long while when he shoved and i really couldnt make sense of his line so i ended up calling (prob bad, especially since hooopydude brought up the point that we need to be good more than 35% of the time here for a call to be profitable)
he showed down turned set 9's...so i just made a note that his 4b flatting range is pretty wide. how can I exploit these tendencies in future hands?

value town with tp?
raise/reraise a bit more than std pre if my range is ahead of his?
cbet more often?
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kmind
Old 06-04-2010, 04:32 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 Yeah exactly to your questions. But either cbet more with value hands if he calls a lot post (or board texture isn't scary to him) or cbet more as a bluff if he folds often postflop (or if board texture is scary to him). 3bet more preflop with highish hands that flop good top pairs and value town him like you said.
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