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KJ on QJJ Flop

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shaun98si

10-28-2005, 11:43 PM Post subject: KJ on QJJ Flop

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Montreal

Posts: 40

Should I make the call?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($12.15)
CO ($13.40)
Button ($21.15)
SB ($31.38)
BB ($21.95)
Hero ($26.80)
UTG+1 ($16.73)
MP1 ($27.90)
MP2 ($21.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

, K

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero calls $0.25, UTG+1 raises to $1, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4.35) J

, Q

, J

(4 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, Button raises to $3, Hero raises to $5, Button raises to $17.15........ Should I call it?, Final Pot: $29.50

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edudlive

10-29-2005, 12:05 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: 100NL 6max

Posts: 623

limping UTG and calling a raise preflop with KJo? fold preflop and you wont be in situations like this

button could have easily jusitified calling a PFR with suited connectors (JQs)

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10-29-2005, 12:06 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Yuck... fold this preflop ALL day long.

But I think you have to call the flop all in. At PartyPoker $25 NL, there's just too many hands that you beat.

shaun98si

10-29-2005, 12:48 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Montreal

Posts: 40

Maybe this is why I only break even and never make any real money... I usualy limp marginal hands even utg trying to get a cheap flop. Then a raise comes and I just go for it sometimes..

BTW.

I called. He took the pot with AJ

Fnord

10-29-2005, 01:08 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun98si

Maybe this is why I only break even and never make any real money... I usualy limp marginal hands even utg trying to get a cheap flop. Then a raise comes and I just go for it sometimes..

Yes and this stems from a fundamental and common mis-understanding about hold'em. If you like showing down hands, learn to play Pineapple, Omaha or 7 card stud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

eeeee

10-29-2005, 03:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

OK, a little bluntness here.

You called a 4xbb from early position with KJ. Done.

Now what? What were you hoping for, exactly? You got it! You flopped 3OAK with a big kicker! So you got your fondest wish and then you open with a 25% raise from early position? That is weak.

Who do you lose to? AJ, QJ, QQ, all possible with a 4xBB PF. Was your $1 bet a weak bet slow play? You got the raising war you wanted, then got scared by the size of the bet?

I think the raising war rules out the semibluff, and the bluff. The other player has QQ or the other J. He called PF -- he could have anything.

I think you go all in. You got the hand you wanted, and now you aren't going to play it? You play it, young man, and you either take your lumps or take the pot.

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

TLR

10-29-2005, 05:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

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TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

You cant seriously consider folding it

shaun98si

10-29-2005, 07:09 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Montreal

Posts: 40

So bottom line is I shouldnt have had to make this call. I should have folded preflop and thats that. Now if I was the button in this case it would have been a completely different story right? Or are those cards trash no matter what pos?

Irisheyes

10-29-2005, 07:58 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Its not really the position thats important, its the other players raise. What cards do people usually raise with? AA, KK, QQ,JJ,AK, AQ, AJ, KQ. All these hands have you beat preflop and all but one of them have you dominated (which is the last thing you want).

Limping these hands is ok because if there is no preflop raise then you can be fairly sure that there is no big dominating hands out there and when you hit your top pair you can be reasomably sure your ahead.

See what I mean?

TLR

10-29-2005, 08:22 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: 5,007

Irisheyes is correct in his explanation.

However position does affect your play - since you do not want to call a raise you want to limp where there is less of a chance you will be raised. Limping from UTG when you are not willing to call raises is an EV- move on most table.

LeFou

10-29-2005, 10:37 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 2,361

KJo is strictly a limp-and-dump. At 25NL you'll actually see some AT/KT raises, JTs, goofy stuff like that.

Okay, you've prolly got that now. On this flop your raise to $5 was way too cute. You bet; if someone raises you push. It's the only way to (hopefully) get the worse hands to call you as well as the better ones.

Now you're stuck reacting -- to a big bet that means trouble 90% of the time. But you can't lay down.

You got 1 poker lesson, $14.25 ... try not to waste this investment. And welcome.

Pingviini

10-31-2005, 11:17 AM

#12 (permalink)

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As a n00b you should probably play tighter than "normally" (whatever that is), not looser. If I were you I would play all PP's for a set and AQ UTG. Perhaps AJs. No KJ or AT, those hands suck out of position. Loosen up with position.

"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20

eeeee

11-02-2005, 01:03 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun98si

KJ is a great hand ... if you are first to raise. If you are calling a strong raise, there are too many ways to lose. The only time I'd think about calling raises with KJ is 4 players or less at the table, or as a blind defense.

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

ProZachNation

11-02-2005, 02:34 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Over there!

Posts: 801

limping or raising with it for a blind steal good, calling a 4XBB raise with it is not. You are behind pretty much all hands that would raise 4XBB unless they are a maniac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.

shaun98si

11-02-2005, 01:40 PM

#15 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Montreal

Posts: 40

Thanks guys. I'll take any input I can get. The past couple days I been folding my mediocre hands to a strong PRF. Looking at the results of the hands. I would have been behind most of the time like you all say. So hole number 1 plugged. Quite a few more to go. Thanks guys!!

qmriis

11-03-2005, 11:07 PM

#16 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Anderson, Indiana

Posts: 5

Whenever your opponents are playing less than optimally or you believe they are far below your skill level, you can play more hands than normal. Generally you want to do this when you have position in the hand though.

If you want to play K-J UTG, switch to the six max tables. Also, with the blinds so small in relation to the stacks, it is theoretically correct to just play the best hands. K-J isn't a premium holding.

Looking through the hand step-by-step...

Mistake #1 Limping UTG with K-J.
Mistake #2 Calling 4x BB. What are your opponents going to raise with? Raises in these low-stakes games are almost always deceptively simple, and very honest. Pairs, A-K, A-Q, K-Q, etc. K-J is an easy fold here. If you must play, T-9 would be a better hand to call the raise with!
Mistake #3 Losing all your stack. Hard to avoid that when you have top trips and a nice kicker though.

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KJ on QJJ Flop

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