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pokerroomace
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11-30-2006, 09:26 PM
Post subject: Keeping the pot small by Gavin Smith
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
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http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip...20Smith&tip=88
Quote:
Pro Tip: 88
Pot-Size Manipulation
Gavin Smith
Nov 30, 2006
Back to Pro Tips Archive
One of the key skills that winning big-bet players bring to the table is the ability to manipulate the size of the pot. They manage to play big pots when they have big hands, and keep the pot smaller when their holdings are more modest. If you think carefully about your betting throughout a hand, you can set yourself up to play a pot that's appropriate for the strength of your hand.
For starters, let's look at a hand that gets a lot of players in trouble - a big pocket pair. Generally, with any one pair, you should be looking to play a medium-sized pot. Of course, you're happy enough to get all of your money in pre-flop with Aces, but beyond that, you should try to avoid playing huge pots with any one pair. Here's an example of how you might manage the size of the pot while holding Aces.
Say that you raise pre-flop with pocket Aces and you're called by the big blind. The flop comes down J-6-3 rainbow, and the blind checks to you. You bet three-quarters of the pot and the big blind calls.
At this point, you can assume your opponent has some kind of hand. Maybe he has a pocket pair or he hit top pair on the flop. The other possibility is that he hit a set on the flop and you're in very bad shape. Given these likely hands, I think that checking behind your opponent if he checks to you on the turn is the best play. You avoid the possibility of losing a monster if you're check-raised by a set. And if he does have a pair, you're not giving away a whole lot of value by giving the free card. He may have two or five outs, which makes him a pretty big dog.
When you check the turn, you do so with the plan of calling a reasonable bet on the river. And if he checks to you on the river, you can put in a small value bet. At that point, your hand would be pretty well disguised, so he is likely to pay you off if he has anything at all.
So in this case, keeping the pot small will get you pretty good value when you're ahead and help you avoid disaster when you're behind.
Now let's look at another type of hand that players commonly misplay - a flopped monster. Say you're in the small blind in a No-Limit cash game. There are four limpers, including the small blind, and you check your option with A-T. The flop is huge for you - A-A-T. You have what is almost certain to be the best hand at showdown. Many players choose to check in this spot, fearing that a bet a will kill their action. And it very well might - it's possible that everyone will just fold. But this is a situation where you want to give yourself the chance to win a big pot. You want someone to put in a lot of money on the turn and river while drawing dead, and that will only be possible if you start building a pot on the flop. In this situation, you've just got to hope that someone is holding the case Ace or decides to draw to a gutshot. So bet two-thirds of the pot on the flop and hope for the best.
Slow-playing might get you a few chips when you catch someone stabbing. But that would win you a tiny pot, and with this hand, you're hoping to get a good portion of someone's stack. You can only do that by betting and building a pot.
In the course of a hand think about what you can do to keep the pot appropriate to the strength of your hand. A timely check or a thoughtful bet can aid you in getting the most out of your hands.
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is this good advice?
when you check the turn with the ace. don't you risk giving your opponent a free draw to 2 pair or trips?
should you ever check the turn with flush and straight draws available?
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Fnord
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It's reasonable advice, there is a lot of good stuff in there.
You shouldn't tend to play big pots with one pair, but via hand reading and such sometimes you should go there.
Also, continually threatening big pots (LAggy and hyper-TAgg) can be effective against weak opponents.
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Lukie
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*shudders*, this is awful.
With TT on that same J-6-3 board, I think it would be good advice.
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mcatdog
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Yeah this sucks. If you have a well-balanced game you'll be checking this turn extremely rarely, if ever. With something like QJ, it's more debatable, although I still like another bet in that case. Getting max value out of good one pair hands is one of the biggest factors separating great players from mediocre players, IMO.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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Way to miss the point. The examples might not be the greatest, but the ideas are solid.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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mcatdog
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Are they? His whole mindset seems to be to try to keep the pot small unless he has an absolute monster of a hand. Constantly trying to get value out of marginally good situations is a much better mindset.
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martindcx1e
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his advice is not as cut and dry as small hand/small pot and big hand/big pot. with some players you can just blast away all 3 streets with your overpair or tptk and get max value. with others that might not work. in those cases a lot of times inducing a river bluff or under-repping your hand by checking the turn works great.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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zook
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I think it's good advice against solid opponents. What hands are you gaining value from when you bet the turn in this situation? Good opponents will fold one pair hands to second barrels unless you've really been out of line. Against bad players I like a bet much more here.
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Fnord
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Yeah, I re-read it (just scanned it the first time.) In a short-handed game AA is a monster, his example is way too weak and most players are loose enough that we shouldn't play routine hands in fear of a set.
All that being said, I think this is a big reason why some people do badly at NLHE, they try too hard to get maxium value out of marginal hands without reads and in the process let their opponents play big pots against them at will.
Consider the entire set of hands you play over a session. If you tended to play smaller pots with marginal hands and tended to play bigger pots with your best hands and best draws, would you be a bigger winner? Would this give you more credability when you threaten to play a big pot?
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Lukie
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
I think it's good advice against solid opponents. What hands are you gaining value from when you bet the turn in this situation? Good opponents will fold one pair hands to second barrels unless you've really been out of line. Against bad players I like a bet much more here.
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you've gotta be joking... you don't think we get value out of worse hands here from AA on this turn? Maybe against a huge nit in a full ring game I would like this play here, or as an occasional change-up play for balance.
Plus, how are your 2nd barrels going to get any credit if you're not firing consistently firing here with such a strong hand?
looks like a few people agree with me
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Way to miss the point. The examples might not be the greatest, but the ideas are solid.
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I would argue that the idea is one of the most basic concepts in NL poker. Perhaps somebody may need a refresher course, sure, but do keep in mind that this example is more then half the article and that he explicitly states that you're holding a big pocket pair. I don't know about you guys but when my flop c-bet gets called on a J-6-3r board, AA is very very very often the best hand here.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
I would argue that the idea is one of the most basic concepts in NL poker. Perhaps somebody may need a refresher course, sure, but do keep in mind that this example is more then half the article and that he explicitly states that you're holding a big pocket pair. I don't know about you guys but when my flop c-bet gets called on a J-6-3r board, AA is very very very often the best hand here.
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Hard to argue with you there.
You have to consider the audience though. These tips aren't written for solid, thinking players. They're written for the type of player that constantly goes broke with an over pair. If you review some of the previous "Tips from the Pros," they aren't overly theoretical. They're just basic advice. As such, I Gavin's column is alright.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
you've gotta be joking... you don't think we get value out of worse hands here from AA on this turn? Maybe against a huge nit in a full ring game I would like this play here, or as an occasional change-up play for balance.
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Since it didn't state otherwise, I assume he's talking about full-ring. And I said solid opponent, which is important. I think a solid opponent is folding almost all of his range that we beat to a second barrel here (AJ, KJs, JTs, TT-77). FWIW, I play at FT 100NL FR and I think 1/3-1/2 of a usual table would play it that way. The rest of his range is QQ/JJ/66/33 imo, with QQ being the only hand that calls a second barrel that you're ahead of. I think you get a lot of value from the part of his range you beat by checking behind the turn. He'll put you on missed overs and either lead the river or c/c with hands that would have folded to a second barrel. And obv you lose a lot less to a set.
This changes completely against a bad, non-nit player.
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mcatdog
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I don't know about you guys, but when my c-bet gets called on a J63 flop, and the turn is another garbage card, they usually call my turn bet with just about anything they called me with on the flop, even if they're a good player. No offense but if you think only better hands call there, it makes me wonder whether you've even played poker before. When I have AA, or KK/QQ on a low flop, I simply assume that I have the best hand and keep blasting away until someone raises me or an obviously bad card comes.
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Lukie
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
I would argue that the idea is one of the most basic concepts in NL poker. Perhaps somebody may need a refresher course, sure, but do keep in mind that this example is more then half the article and that he explicitly states that you're holding a big pocket pair. I don't know about you guys but when my flop c-bet gets called on a J-6-3r board, AA is very very very often the best hand here.
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Hard to argue with you there.
You have to consider the audience though. These tips aren't written for solid, thinking players. They're written for the type of player that constantly goes broke with an over pair. If you review some of the previous "Tips from the Pros," they aren't overly theoretical. They're just basic advice. As such, I Gavin's column is alright. |
fair enough
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
I think a solid opponent is folding almost all of his range that we beat to a second barrel here (AJ, KJs, JTs, TT-77). FWIW, I play at FT 100NL FR and I think 1/3-1/2 of a usual table would play it that way. The rest of his range is QQ/JJ/66/33 imo, with QQ being the only hand that calls a second barrel that you're ahead of.
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Anyone who calls the flop with that hand range and then folds to a second barrel 75% of the time is a horrible poker player, do you see why? Against a nit that's this awful, I can see checking behind here, but I can't imagine much of the player pool folding AJ on the turn here.
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Lukie
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
you've gotta be joking... you don't think we get value out of worse hands here from AA on this turn? Maybe against a huge nit in a full ring game I would like this play here, or as an occasional change-up play for balance.
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Since it didn't state otherwise, I assume he's talking about full-ring. And I said solid opponent, which is important. I think a solid opponent is folding almost all of his range that we beat to a second barrel here (AJ, KJs, JTs, TT-77). FWIW, I play at FT 100NL FR and I think 1/3-1/2 of a usual table would play it that way. The rest of his range is QQ/JJ/66/33 imo, with QQ being the only hand that calls a second barrel that you're ahead of. I think you get a lot of value from the part of his range you beat by checking behind the turn. He'll put you on missed overs and either lead the river or c/c with hands that would have folded to a second barrel. And obv you lose a lot less to a set.
This changes completely against a bad, non-nit player. |
the player you are describing is a very bad, very nitty player if this is honestly what his range is. We might as well just call him dead money. We should fire 2 barrels against this guy with any 2, every time. We could probably check back some strong one pair hands (like AA and a few others) and continue blasting away with everything else and show huge profit.
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Lukie
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
I think a solid opponent is folding almost all of his range that we beat to a second barrel here (AJ, KJs, JTs, TT-77). FWIW, I play at FT 100NL FR and I think 1/3-1/2 of a usual table would play it that way. The rest of his range is QQ/JJ/66/33 imo, with QQ being the only hand that calls a second barrel that you're ahead of.
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Anyone who calls the flop with that hand range and then folds to a second barrel 75% of the time is a horrible poker player, do you see why? Against a nit that's this awful, I can see checking behind here, but I can't imagine much of the player pool folding AJ on the turn here. |
in fairness, many bad players frequently c-bet the flop and give up on the turn if called. Against these (and not just limited to these) types, it's often correct to call on the flop only to fold on the turn.
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JB25163
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Examples aside, being able to minimize losses while maximizing wins is pretty important.
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zook
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What's a solid player's range here? Calling a pre-flop raise from the BB then c/c'ing a J63 rainbow flop...
edit: mcat, you're right that AJ is probably calling a second-barrel here, but I still can't imagine much else. And AJ (or QQ for that matter) often leads the flop, or at least the turn. It's a weird line.
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