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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 08-22-2007, 01:06 AM     Post subject: A-K 100NL+ #1 (permalink)  
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 After some thought, i have come to the conclusion that we almost always want to be the aggressor preflop with A-K. And if all that follows is common knowledge... i once again demonstrate my donkiness!

The postflop play reasons...

If we end just calling in a re-raised pot with A-K, check/calling or floating on a dry Ace/King high board is a scary line to villain. A check/raise on such a board usually flips our hand face up, and villain will be hesitant to put any more money in the pot without TPTK or better. Basically, extraction becomes very difficult. Even if villain continuation bets and we shove, calling without TPTK or better won't happen often.

However if we are the PFR and an Ace/King high flop comes and we c-bet, villain could look us up with a weaker Ace/weaker King, and sometimes float a pocket pair IP. Extracting another bet from a weaker TP is usually very doable when you are the preflop aggressor. Another neat play if Hero 3bets OOP preflop is to check the turn and river. This will encourage a weaker TP to put in a value bet; then, check/raise! This play will also benefit us in future hands because an observant villain (i.e. most regulars) will be less likely to stick in so many thin value bets on future rivers... And then of course we can take the pot down on the flop with a continuation bet some of the time.

And then the reason to 4bet...

And then there's the more well known logic for 4betting A-K; you are only about a 2:1 underdog to a calling range of K-K+/A-K. And if villain knows you will 4bet A-K, it is pretty likely he will often look you up with Q-Q, which also improves your equity against his calling range.

So if i get 3bet with A-K by anyone but a nit, i think the standard play should be to 4bet. I also almost always 4bet K-K+ and sometimes A-xs if opponent is a light 3bettor.

Others elaborating on this idea, and counterpoints are appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 08-22-2007, 02:17 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Deciding whether or not to 4bet A-K preflop is of course dependent on villain's 3bet range, but i think even at 100NL most good regulars are 3betting 7-8% of their starting hands.

Probably other conditions i forgot to explicitly mention...
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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minSim
Old 08-24-2007, 09:18 AM #3 (permalink)  
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The things you said are all correct. Always remember that raising and 3-betting ranges of villain are very important.

In general, I would say that AK is a 1 or 2 street value hand (preflop and flop). Therefor you want to make the pot as big as possible preflop, so the flop bet is larger and your value is the most.

But you are only hitting 1/3 flops. You know why having initiative is very important in the other 2/3 pots.

4-betting (shove) someone with a JJ+ 3-bet range is not a good idea. Put AK in his range and maybe some other hands and it is.

The FE you have, combined with the stack-pot ratio that it creates, make it +EV:
As long as his 3-betting range is wide enough;
- and his 4-bet calling range is small, you have enough FE.
- and his 4-bet calling range is wide, you have equity.

Key to the 4-bet is villains 3-betting range. If that is not veryvery tight, we're doing good 4-betting AK.


Here are some interesting links about laying down AK.
They talk about FR, but could be good for your thought process.

Cardplayer articles by Rolf Slotboom;
http://www.cardplayer.com/author/article/all/111/3698
http://www.cardplayer.com/author/article/all/111/5015

And a thread from Fnord:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...4439&highlight
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 08-24-2007, 11:37 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
The FE you have, combined with the stack-pot ratio that it creates, make it +EV:
As long as his 3-betting range is wide enough;
- and his 4-bet calling range is small, you have enough FE.
- and his 4-bet calling range is wide, you have equity.
This sums up the reasons to 4bet pretty well


Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
Great link; I particularly enjoyed reading this thread. I found 3 really good concepts that are mentioned by Fnord, Rondavu, and Aislephive that apply to many other scenarios that occur regularly at the poker tables.
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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hopeful
Old 08-29-2007, 10:12 AM #5 (permalink)  
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hopeful
I have just stepped up to $100 level this month and lost $375. I had 10,000 hands at 11 BB/100 when playing $50. A large amont of my losses have been in similar situations to the one described. AK, AQ have cost more $ than any other hands. I have learnt a lot from this thread and the links it contains. The key to the decision is the opening hands from the initial raiser, If he is a tight multi tabler at $100 his range might be only JJ+, AK in which case your only chance to make money is JJ and QQ even their you need a good flop, if you get a good flop he may fold.
In future i fold here.
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