Originally Posted by iopq

amidoingitrite
villain 3b me bvb three times already, and I was getting pretty sick of his shit

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($107.90)
Button ($113.15)
Hero (SB) ($119.05)
BB ($115.70)
UTG ($43.45)
MP ($38.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, 5
4 folds, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $22.50, BB calls $12.50

Flop: ($45) 10, 8, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, 1 fold

Total pot: $45 | Rake: $2.25

Originally Posted by kmind

I'd pick a better hand to counter, iopq. It really depends on how often he folds too but in most cases I'd go with Axo but that's ONLY if they know how to fold.

Originally Posted by kmind

Can you tell me why you like this, ragnar?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

what?

Originally Posted by iopq

How often am I going to have Axo? He 3b me every time I raised from SB. A2o-ATo is 8.1% of all hands
Hands I am 4b for value:
QQ+,AK 2.6%
Hands I flat a 3b with:
JJ-99,AQs-AJs,KJs+,AQo-AJo,KQo 5.3%

so I am continuing with 16% of my range
he's risking $10 to win a total of $13.5
if I fold 74% of the time he makes IMMEDIATE profit
so if I raise 61% from the SB he makes immediate profit on his 3b
furthermore, since I'm flatting 1/3 of the time, he can sometimes win a pot post-flop, especially being in position

so I'm 4bing him really 10% so if he breaks even when I flat he only needs me to raise 40%

all of that adds up to
1. Stop raising so much from SB
2. Widen 4b range (incl. 4b for value range)

Originally Posted by GatorJH

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

Originally Posted by oskar

Usually the first time I 4-bet someone who 3-bets a lot, I want to do it with say the top 1/4 of his range, just because so many of them just won't give up. I'd rather test out his 3b/folding range when I stand a chance of having the best hand... and just generally I don't really mix in pure buffs like ever. Of course I'd rather call with KQ and raise 68s, but that's just because of how they play against a calling range, but I wouldn't even consider the Q2, 94 or 23...

Basically you're correct in saying you 'have' to 4-bet and otherwise you're giving them an edge, but if the guy is never ever folding to 4-bets, and you're oop, it can be much more profitable to just wait for a good hand, flop a pair and stack him when he reverse floats in a 4-bet pot and then bluff shovels the turn.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

I think his point there is that you need to know WHY you bet smaller in 3bet pots as you won't always want to do that. What factors in this hand led to the decision to put in a 1/2 pot c-bet?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

1/2 pot is about the smallest bet I'm willing to make when bluffing. The reason is I don't want to be played back (Post Oak Bluff Super-System) at, and anything less would be something that may get re-shoved over. At 1/2 pot on a pretty dry board with a Q I could have hit makes him want to fold TT, JJ 99 and AK.

Against thinking player I may bet less (1/3rd pot?) in order to encourage my opponent to play back at me if I were to flop top 2 or a set or something. Also I would need to balance this with betting full pot sometimes when I catch a large hand too.

Originally Posted by kmind

I can't imagine double barrel bluffing in 3bet spots at these stakes with ~100bb stacks to ever work.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

it doesn't really matter what stakes if you're getting players to float you with ridiculously weak hands then betting the turn should be +EV vacuumalizationallywise

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

So what ridiculously weak hands are in our opponents range after the 3-bet call in op hand? Especially when we realize that my 3-bet was supa-lite when compared to a 4%PFR

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

So what ridiculously weak hands are in our opponents range after the 3-bet call in op hand? Especially when we realize that my 3-bet was supa-lite when compared to a 4%PFR

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I was thinking about this earlier and I generally this it's bad advice if players don't understand how betting smaller on the flop should affect turn/river ranges and decisions. Most will just do it because "yay now I get to lose less when my AK whiffs" instead of "well since I've induced bluffs and a wider-continuing range I need to barrel or c/r the turn a larger % of the time than normal b/c it will result in a profitable outcome"