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Vinland
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06-05-2009, 02:03 PM
Post subject: JJ vs. Maniac...raise or shove preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Maniac was running approx 75/40/4 over 45 hands. He raised cards he shouldn't and raised to stupid amounts...I wasnt concerned with what he had....
There was a caller to Maniacs' pf raise....I didnt have enough hands on him...
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Maniac (CO) ($2.79)
Button ($7.03)
Bystander (SB) ($1.55)
Hero (BB) ($4.35)
UTG ($1.90)
MP ($5.56)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J , J
2 folds, Maniac bets $0.26, 1 fold, Bystander calls $0.25, Hero ?
I had to make an assumption that since Bystander didnt reraise, he probably didnt have QQ+....its possible but unlikely. So I put him on either 99-JJ, A8+, KT+.
What's best here...raise to $1 or shove? I wonder if raising to $1 and getting calls will commit both to the hand anyway so a shove is the better play?
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I confess in quicksand
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if you don't 3b this I'll smack you
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Raise to $1 or a tad less and shove any flop
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Quote:
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if you don't 3b this I'll smack you
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Of course I 3bet.....but do I just raise it to say $1 or do I shove??
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I confess in quicksand
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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You're one aggro mofo Iopq.....you should be a general...
Captain: "Sir, we outnumber the enemy 20-1"
General Iopq: "If you don't send in the reinforcements I'll smack you!"
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I confess in quicksand
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
You're one aggro mofo Iopq...
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I need to get laid obv
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cremson687
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 28
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Whats the point of raising to a dollar if your just gonna shove any flop? I would probably raise to $1 for 2 reasons; 1. you put more pressure on the cold caller 2. the maniac could just shove in thinking your trying to steal or w.e maniacs think and could force the cold caller out. Also idk if saying that the bystanders range can't be QQ+ because he could be calling just based on the fact that he assumes the maniac is raising with anything so could be setting a trap.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cremson687
Whats the point of raising to a dollar if your just gonna shove any flop? I would probably raise to $1 for 2 reasons; 1. you put more pressure on the cold caller 2. the maniac could just shove in thinking your trying to steal or w.e maniacs think and could force the cold caller out. Also idk if saying that the bystanders range can't be QQ+ because he could be calling just based on the fact that he assumes the maniac is raising with anything so could be setting a trap.
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because YOU know you're shoving any flop, the villain doesn't and he'll happily call preflop to hit the flop
if he's bad enough just shoving is better
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Why are we shoving ANY flop? Since the hypothetical situation is hero 3bets pf. We have no idea who is going to call or maniac might shove back. What if Bystander 4bets us AI? Obv if maniac shoves we call but that would depend on our reads + his 4bet/shove range...My line is 4bet 4x and re-evaluate the flop if I you get action. We aren't pot commited just because we bet a 1/4th of our stack.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Why are we shoving ANY flop? Since the hypothetical situation is hero 3bets pf. We have no idea who is going to call or maniac might shove back. What if Bystander 4bets us AI? Obv if maniac shoves we call but that would depend on our reads + his 4bet/shove range...My line is 4bet 4x and re-evaluate the flop if I you get action. We aren't pot commited just because we bet a 1/4th of our stack.
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what does our stack size have to do with anything?
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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Did anyone think of folding? According to the article I read yesterday http://tommyangelo.com/articles/folding.htm , folding is good here. But i am pretty sure Barry Greenstein would have shoved there.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Why are we shoving ANY flop? Since the hypothetical situation is hero 3bets pf. We have no idea who is going to call or maniac might shove back. What if Bystander 4bets us AI? Obv if maniac shoves we call but that would depend on our reads + his 4bet/shove range...My line is 4bet 4x and re-evaluate the flop if I you get action. We aren't pot commited just because we bet a 1/4th of our stack.
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what does our stack size have to do with anything? |
Everything? Our stack size is just as important as whether or not we 4x pf or just shove. Just because we have villain covered doesnt mean our remaining chips dont matter. I was simply saying that you dont need to shove just any flop.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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$1.5, close your eyes and go all-in on the flop.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
$1.5, close your eyes and go all-in on the flop.
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Why?
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van.dog
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 58
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Because JJ is nearly guaranteed to double his money. Unless he wanted to play with the maniac longer.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
$1.5, close your eyes and go all-in on the flop.
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Why? |
Our remaining chips don't matter. We are only as deep as the smallest stack. So in this case with us raising to $1 or more, it isn't raising 1/4 of the our stack. It is more like raising 1/3 of the effective stack. On the flop the pot will be larger than $2, and the maniac will have <$2 in his stack. So any bet will be allin. And with the range of hands that this maniac will be calling with, even with an over or two, we are going to be in decent shape against his range. Not only because he will miss so often, but also because he is so terrible he can call it off with worse things even when somewhat scary boards come.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Interesting responses...
I was more worried with Bystander.....and I wasnt sure if I should just raise and then wonder what to do if an A or K came up on the flop (if Bystander was still in the hand) or if I should shove and hence not have a difficult decision on the flop.
**Spoiler**
As played, I shoved....Maniac folded and Bystander called with A5s....my JJ held up. The flop had a Q and a K in it....phew...
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I confess in quicksand
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
$1.5, close your eyes and go all-in on the flop.
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Why? |
Our remaining chips don't matter. We are only as deep as the smallest stack. So in this case with us raising to $1 or more, it isn't raising 1/4 of the our stack. It is more like raising 1/3 of the effective stack. On the flop the pot will be larger than $2, and the maniac will have <$2 in his stack. So any bet will be allin. And with the range of hands that this maniac will be calling with, even with an over or two, we are going to be in decent shape against his range. Not only because he will miss so often, but also because he is so terrible he can call it off with worse things even when somewhat scary boards come. |
thanks for the response.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
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lol did anyone else see this
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
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lol did anyone else see this |
Yes, and ignored it.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
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lol did anyone else see this |
Yes, and ignored it. |
I need to watch more BET or something because I'm finding the most ridiculous things amusing lately...
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
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lol did anyone else see this |
: D yeah, what do you think M2M?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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I actually got into a spot like this today. I 3bet enough to get a good chunk of his stack in then prepared to shove any flop.
Conclusion: Ace high or worse will still call.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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shove PF, really don't see a better action w/ stack sizes vs. this opponent
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
shove PF
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Why? I want to lay the maniac a price to see a flop with chips left to wager.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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he's not folding PF for any amount, could see him folding a decent % of flops though
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
he's not folding PF for any amount
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This isn't true.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I would say his calling range against a $1.50 raise is the same against a shove.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I would say his calling range against a $1.50 raise is the same against a shove.
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My experience and absurd win-rate in spots like this with weaker hands says otherwise.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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guess it's one of those agree to disagree spots b/c you're not gonna change my mind and I've learned not to try to change yours
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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1/3, push is such a sexy line. Try it sometime. Comedy gold how weak players respond to it.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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you said 1.50, which is a lot more than 1/3
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JoeShowdown
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High Card
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 13
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I would shove with JJ and the maniac will call you with any pair or any acehigh hand, possibly kq etc. Race with him and take it down 
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maniac only has 2.79 he's not $4.5 deep
so 1/3 would be .9
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Spenda:
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shove PF, really don't see a better action w/ stack sizes vs. this opponent
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As a beginner, I **try** and make decisions that are easy on me...
I didnt want to just raise and have to make a decision on the flop for a huge chunk of change...So I shoved which I felt would be the best starting hand preflop anyway...His stack size played a roll in my shove...
That was my thinking anyway...
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I confess in quicksand
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