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JJ/TT with all undercards

  
 
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AlexAllen02
Old 09-12-2006, 04:29 PM     Post subject: JJ/TT with all undercards #1 (permalink)  
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I'll ask a general question that has been confusing me.
I have been switching from SNG to ring over the last month.
In a SNG most people have advised me to play for stacks if you have JJ/TT and the flop is all undercards.
I have just found myself losing a lot with these cards in this situation in ring. With heavier action it seems like one of the bigger pairs or a smaller set. There just don't seem to be many people that are willing to put in significant money with only TPTK on say a 9 or 10 high board. Some of the resistance is surely bluffing with AK, etc., but it is getting expensive looking those up.
Any advice?
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martindcx1e
Old 09-12-2006, 04:35 PM #2 (permalink)  
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it helps to have specific hands, but it's a good rule not to go broke when you have a weak overpair. the smaller your overpair the worse it gets and the higher the board is (like 9-high and you hold TT) the worse it gets.
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The Izebox
Old 09-12-2006, 04:36 PM #3 (permalink)  
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1. I like to reraise preflop to see if your opponent has a bigger pair. If you get three bet, (especially a min reraise at lower limits!) play like you would play a small pair and feel free to fold the flop.

2. Play the flop fast, and let your opponent tell you that you are bet. If you get rerereraised all in on the flop, or check called on the flop and check raised on the turn youre probably beat. Usually, if you are showing down an over pair on the river in big pot youre going to have the worst hand, whether or not you have jacks or aces.

3. Bet the flop like a mad man, reraise big, let your opponent tell you you are beat and if he does, THEN LISTEN TO HIM! Remember, its better to lose 1/4 of your stack on the flop then 3/4s of it by showdown.
Me? I always tell the truth.

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swiggidy
Old 09-12-2006, 04:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 The limit and your general style also have a huge effect.

At 25NL, a raise generally means you are beaten because villain will check/call with AT on a T high flop. At higher limits the raise may mean "I don't believe you".
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Warpe
Old 09-12-2006, 04:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 The biggest losers in ring are pairs and 2 pair. Be very cautious about stacking off w/o anything less than a set unless you have reads that your opponents likely have worse. This is one of the biggest adjustments SNG players have to make transitioning to ring.

Make sets, get paid.



 
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martindcx1e
Old 09-12-2006, 04:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Make sets, get paid.
write this across your monitor OP
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Rondavu
Old 09-12-2006, 04:53 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Learn to control your pot sizes with vulnerable hands against non action opponents. Understand how much action your hand can handle against solid players, and how an overpair is ahead of a bad players range allowing you to destack more often.

If a solid villain starts building a big pot with you, and you have a weak overpair, just fold like a lawnchair if you have a respectful relationship with the villain.

Some opponents don't raise TP 3-9. They float and go passive with the entire range you're ahead of. When they raise you're outy. Just the way it is. A solid player is not going to raise A9 on a 9 high against a respectful opponent who bets hard into them. They're going to float in position, and lead fold to a reraise OOP.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Miffed22001
Old 09-12-2006, 06:06 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 1. Pot control (unless youre playing with retards)
2. Dont stack off with one pair hands unless you have a *very* good reason to.

Everything you learnt playing SNG's just forget about in cash game play imo. They are all often bad habits.
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Fnord
Old 09-12-2006, 06:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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No more double up early donks and the money is a lot deeper.
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AlexAllen02
Old 09-12-2006, 08:01 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Thanks for all the replies.
I'm definitely finding that if the pot gets large, you are usually facing a pretty strong had in ring. I am winning overall, but the reason I'm not up a lot more is because I am less willing to give people credit for the big hands when I have TPTK or two pair, for example, than I should be.
I'm starting to look at the ring game as treading water with marginal (to good) hands to stay even with the blinds and maybe winning a little here and there while waiting for the big hands that truly pay you. Is this pretty accurate? Don't really go nuts without a set or better?
I posted this because I felt weak always giving up on my JJ/TT when I met resistance, but it sounds like that is probably the way to go.
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Rondavu
Old 09-12-2006, 08:08 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexAllen02
I felt weak always giving up on my JJ/TT when I met resistance, but it sounds like that is probably the way to go.
It is until you get your feet wet. Once you get some ring hands under your belt, you can seek more marginal spots where you feel ahead. You can win a lot of money just camping for big hands though, and generally being a nit at this level. Better safe than sorry lest you get your head chopped off.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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AlexAllen02
Old 09-13-2006, 01:43 PM #12 (permalink)  
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This is an example of my weakness here.

PokerStars Game #6270083205: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/09/13 - 09:10:08 (ET)
Table 'Kurhah' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: tales17 ($52.05 in chips)
Seat 2: filtertip ($55.60 in chips)
Seat 3: bounder2 ($19.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Zzjorzz ($25.80 in chips)
Seat 5: AlexAllen02 ($46.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Scoiattolo ($47.10 in chips)
Seat 7: Korchnoi ($69.40 in chips)
Seat 8: RiverMonkey ($34.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Maxmx ($48.25 in chips)
filtertip: posts small blind $0.25
bounder2: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlexAllen02 [Qc Qh]
Zzjorzz: folds
AlexAllen02: raises $1.50 to $2
Scoiattolo: calls $2
Korchnoi: folds
RiverMonkey: folds
tales17 is disconnected
tales17 is connected
Maxmx: folds
tales17: calls $2
filtertip: folds
bounder2: folds
*** FLOP *** [5h 9h 6d]
AlexAllen02: bets $5
Scoiattolo: raises $5 to $10
tales17: folds
AlexAllen02: calls $5
*** TURN *** [5h 9h 6d] [6s]
AlexAllen02: checks
Scoiattolo: bets $4
AlexAllen02: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [5h 9h 6d 6s] [4h]
AlexAllen02: checks
Scoiattolo: bets $13
AlexAllen02: folds
Scoiattolo collected $33.10 from pot

My thoughts:
PF:
Just called the raise, probably not AA or KK unless he is slowplaying it.

Flop:
Decent sized bet into a flush/straight board
Not sure about the reraise.

Turn:
This seems like a bet he wants called.

River:
Flush/straight/trips board+big bet.
I just figured with one pair I was probably beat, but I am unsure.
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swiggidy
Old 09-13-2006, 03:13 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Plays like this are my major loss right now.

My thought:
PF - 2 callers, meh
Flop - rags, sweet. Min-raise me? fine lets see the turn
Turn - What a donk bet, I have to call
River - Crap

FWIW, on the river you are almost definitely behind. Not sure how to make that distinction earlier.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 09-13-2006, 04:10 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 it's important to know whether opp is loose or tight.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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Warpe
Old 09-13-2006, 04:12 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
it's important to know whether opp is loose or tight.

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