Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Beginners Circle

  > 

JJ in SB... what to do.

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
tom
Old 04-25-2010, 06:22 PM     Post subject: 10NL 6max: JJ in SB... what to do. #1 (permalink)  
tom's Avatar
Straight

Join Date: May 2005
Location: ATX
Posts: 158
tom
Send a message via AIM to tom
UTG is 25/22 over ~20 hands. Button was similar over less hands. Nothing real interesting otherwise.
Preflop-- should I be squeezing here? Seemed like a bad spot at the time vs UTG raise, BU call.
I feel like flop line is bad and gets me in to a crappy spot on the turn. So somewhere I should show aggression before I lead the turn, I just don't know where.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($2.35)
Button ($10.15)
SB ($11.60)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($12.80)
MP ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
UTG bets $0.40, 2 folds, Button calls $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 2, 3, 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.05) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.30, UTG raises to $11.50 (All-In), Hero????

Total pot: $7.65 | Rake: $0.35
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
al yell
Old 04-25-2010, 07:03 PM #2 (permalink)  
al yell's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
al yell
Send a message via MSN to al yell Send a message via Skype™ to al yell
 to be taken with a grain of salt but I would like to offer my analysis...

if we assume that UTG is never flatting the squeeze (with the exception of slowplaying AA to get more $ out of BTN - which he'll prob rarely do anyhow), he is either raising or folding. When he raises we're behind or flipping, when he folds we were prob way ahead. We allow him to play perfectly. Better then to squeeze as a bluff with hands you don't mind giving up with to a shove and that play reasonably well postflop in the event that we get called (K7s, Q9s and so on). But that being said I'm not sure the optimal dynamics exist here for a squeeze. So flatting pre seems right to me.

postflop i think my plan is c/c > c/c > c/f

your turn lead seems weak - i.e. what hands are you doing this with for value?
When Push Comes To Shove
 
Reply With Quote
rong
Old 04-25-2010, 08:27 PM #3 (permalink)  
rong's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
rong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the rough
 I hate JJ 3-way, becomes about as good as 55. 3bet pre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
Reply With Quote
MiLEHiGH
Old 04-25-2010, 08:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
High Card

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4
MiLEHiGH is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by al yell View Post

postflop i think my plan is c/c > c/c > c/f

your turn lead seems weak - i.e. what hands are you doing this with for value?
+1
Reply With Quote
FlyingSaucy
Old 04-25-2010, 09:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
FlyingSaucy's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
FlyingSaucy
I agree with 3bet pre and check turn.
Reply With Quote
al yell
Old 04-26-2010, 12:38 AM #6 (permalink)  
al yell's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
al yell
Send a message via MSN to al yell Send a message via Skype™ to al yell
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanAronG View Post
3bet pre.
I'd love to understanding why. If anyone could offer an explanation it would be greatly appreciated.
When Push Comes To Shove
 
Reply With Quote
kmind
Old 04-26-2010, 12:53 AM #7 (permalink)  
kmind's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
kmind is on a distinguished road
 I agree with flat call pre for the reasons al yell said.
Reply With Quote
rpm
Old 04-26-2010, 02:35 AM #8 (permalink)  
rpm's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,041
rpm has a spectacular aura aboutrpm has a spectacular aura aboutrpm has a spectacular aura about
 i 3bet here sometimes if i know villain is opening wide and calling 3bets with a high % of that range, because we are going to still have the best hand on the flop more often vs a wide range than vs a tight range, so being OOP isnt as bad. vs typical villains i probably smooth here. if villain cbets a lot of flops, i like c/c'ing. if villain is pretty straightforward/honest, perhaps donkbet? more for hand protection and forcing villain to define his hand than for pure value, although we still get value from T9+ and possibly 66-99.
Reply With Quote
Poker Guru
Old 04-26-2010, 10:28 AM #9 (permalink)  
Poker Guru's Avatar
Two Pair

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 37
Poker Guru is on a distinguished road
 3bet pre. As played check/call the turn and re-evaluate river.
Reply With Quote
rong
Old 04-26-2010, 11:51 AM #10 (permalink)  
rong's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
rong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the rough
 Can we throw some ranges in here.

What's UTG raising range? And 3bet calling range? 4bet range?

I guess the answsers to all our questions will come from here.

I don't play 6max, so kinda useless here, but I would have opening range as ATs+, AJ+, 22+, KJs+, KQ. Someone who knows what they are doing should take over now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
Reply With Quote
oskar
Old 04-26-2010, 06:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
oskar's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
oskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura about
 I'm surprised people think that UTG will fold a huge part of his range to a squeeze. But that's something for OP to figure out. If I call I would donk the flop unless UTG is a hopeless c-betting monkey or BTN bets in position no matter what. Because I don't think calling ranges are narrower than betting ranges, and you get to control the betting and stuff.

Your turn donk is really weired. What are you trying to do with that? Especially after the c/c on the flop.
Reply With Quote
!Luck
Old 04-26-2010, 11:24 PM #12 (permalink)  
!Luck's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
!Luck is on a distinguished road
 3 betting is BAD. If your logic to 3 bet is cause arg hand XX is bad multiway then you are not thinking correctly. Donk betting is an interesting idea oskar, cause then you will get value of AK,AQ and a bunch of other random crap.

I know donk betting is scary because if QKA hit on turn you need to seriously consider giving up and if you don't have the discipline you should just play this hand as a sit minner.

As played the turn is SUPER easy fold.
Reply With Quote
tom
Old 04-26-2010, 11:52 PM #13 (permalink)  
tom's Avatar
Straight

Join Date: May 2005
Location: ATX
Posts: 158
tom
Send a message via AIM to tom
Flop I was looking for value from any overs or other pp that missed. Then turn I realized I hate giving the possibility of a free river card for overs, so that's likely the thought behind the turn donk. It does look weird looking at it now-- If I'm flatting pre I like the c/c, c/c, c/f or c river depending...

My 20 hand assumption of UTG wasn't that he was opening wide from EP-- but it's still an OKAY spot to squeeze? The idea of being oop w/ JJ in a 3bet pot scares me.

btw I'm only 2k hands in to my first go of 6max, which is also a return from a long hiatus from poker(FR) so I still have a lot of FR nit & general rust so there's not necessarily a good reason for anything I do!
 
Reply With Quote
littleogre
Old 04-27-2010, 05:50 PM #14 (permalink)  

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 call pf bet flop check turn
Reply With Quote
rong
Old 04-27-2010, 06:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
rong's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
rong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the rough
 Prior to reading this thread (and prior to dropping 4 buyins in 280 hands last night - yes, that's right, I lost at a rate of 143bb/100 hands) I would have played as follows:

3bet pre to 1.20, hopefully only one caller,
pot on flop: $2.95
Bet $2.20 on flop & fold to raise, or sometimes c/r shove, depending on mood.
If called, I would have shoved the turn card.

Now I appreciate this is wrong. Is this turning a made hand into a bluff? This is something I struggle with & my experience so far since moving upto 10nl is that players are far more aware & seem to pay a lot more attention with regard to ranges (compared to 5nl anyway). If we had say TJs and I had called, I could happily c/c to see a showdown (ignoring turn T), but with an overpair I feel I should be able to handle some action. Can we really have villains range narrowed down to sets QQ+?

By calling pre, are we simply playing for set value or hoping to get a cheap showdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
Reply With Quote
kmind
Old 04-27-2010, 06:51 PM #16 (permalink)  
kmind's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
kmind is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanAronG View Post
By calling pre, are we simply playing for set value or hoping to get a cheap showdown?
Well, not necessarily either. By calling, we accomplish a few things:

1. We don't turn our hand into a bluff because IMO (and this is huge that it's just MY opinion and better reads could definitely change this) he won't continue if we 3bet unless he has QQ+/AK SOMETIMES JJ and rarely TT. I play more tightly until I have a better read he'll be flatting with more than those hands.

2. It strengthens our flat calling range. This is the part where it doesn't necessarily mean we need a cheap showdown. By shoring up our preflop calling range, we are able to play a bigger pot postflop because we now have a stronger hand compared to our perceived weak range. Do you get that? I feel like I can't explain that well.


Also, I wouldn't donk this turn and him raising is a clear fold because the turn hit our range pretty well and he doesn't care (full houses/quads/Tx/QQ+...but mainly full houses/quads/Tx).

However, I think donking this turn is not something Tom would actually do for value and I personally would raise this a lot as a bluff. I don't think most 10NLers would do that though.
Reply With Quote
rong
Old 04-28-2010, 08:08 AM #17 (permalink)  
rong's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
rong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the roughrong is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind View Post
1. We don't turn our hand into a bluff because IMO (and this is huge that it's just MY opinion and better reads could definitely change this) he won't continue if we 3bet unless he has QQ+/AK SOMETIMES JJ and rarely TT. I play more tightly until I have a better read he'll be flatting with more than those hands.
I guess this is where I disagree, and also how I justify 3betting. I think 3bets are called far, far wider than this at 5nl.

I would include something along the lines of:

100% of the time: AK+, JJ+
50% of the time: AQ, KQs, 77-TT.
30% of the time: KQ
10% of the time I'd even throw in 89s-QJs

Maybe I'm well out with this, but I've had 3bets called by all kinds of crap. If I get the time I'd like to trawl through HM and get some stats, as the above is just off the top of my head and could be miles out, but time etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
Reply With Quote
Sabr1988
Old 04-28-2010, 09:19 AM #18 (permalink)  
Sabr1988's Avatar
3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark, Kalundborg
Posts: 66
Sabr1988
Only guessing, but i think it can seem like he have QQ or when talking about his call UTG it could be, as you pointed, that he was slowplaying aces. Actually it seems more like AA or KK play, with that allin at last.
With patience you win
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 04-28-2010, 10:59 AM #19 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Fold if bet sizing or timing or something makes you think he's got it.

YouTube - Eric Prydz - Call On Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
littleogre
Old 05-01-2010, 06:20 PM #20 (permalink)  

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Fold if bet sizing or timing or something makes you think he's got it.

YouTube - Eric Prydz - Call On Me
My dick would rip through my pants if i was that guy.
Reply With Quote
IAM-member
Old 05-01-2010, 07:08 PM #21 (permalink)  
One Pair

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 21
IAM-member
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanAronG View Post
I guess this is where I disagree, and also how I justify 3betting. I think 3bets are called far, far wider than this at 5nl.

I would include something along the lines of:

100% of the time: AK+, JJ+
50% of the time: AQ, KQs, 77-TT.
30% of the time: KQ
10% of the time I'd even throw in 89s-QJs

Maybe I'm well out with this, but I've had 3bets called by all kinds of crap. If I get the time I'd like to trawl through HM and get some stats, as the above is just off the top of my head and could be miles out, but time etc.
Wow I really want to see some stats to back this, and besides you're totally forgetting/leaving out factors such as 3bet sizing, previous history, etc.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:19 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.