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JJ OOP in 3b pot vs unknown villain

  
 
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surviva316
Old 06-30-2009, 07:30 PM     Post subject: JJ OOP in 3b pot vs unknown villain #1 (permalink)  
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 3betting villain is 27/22 and this was his 3rd 3b over just 17 hands. i know that the hand as it played out is really pretty straight forward but i'm wondering how i should proceed if he had put more pressure on me by betting at some point.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($12.65)
UTG ($20.14)
Hero (MP) ($10)
Button ($17.35)
SB ($16.27)

Preflop: Hero is MP with ,
UTG bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, Button raises to $1.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.05

standard. saw that this villain had already 3b twice before so he's not someone who just 3b's QQ+.

Flop: ($3.30) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

looks boring but some things to bring up here. the second i made the call i immediately went to Last Hand to see what had happened in the other 3b pots. see that he flatted AKo in another hand so i felt like he was either a light 3bettor or he was capable of doing it as a bluff.

meanwhile i requested time on this Q-high flop, so i could look through HHs, so villain knows that this isn't an easy check for me. i know this affects metagame but i'm really not sure how because if he's a good thinking player he could know that i can do this with the nuts, but if his a laggo then he might take this as weakness and fire away.

so hypothetically, if he had bet here what would my plan have been? he cbet in 2 of his other 3 opps so would hate to fold to what is going to be missed Axs and crap like that more often then something that was helped by this board (then again maybe he's 3b'ing AQ for value). if i call how would i continue? c/f turn and c/reval river? float? man i'm clueless in 3b pots

Turn: ($3.30) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

i doubt leading's the right play here, but c/c kinda sucks 'cause he knows he can bet any river and i have to fold to any sort of barrel here. just c/c, c/f unimproved rivers?

River: ($3.30) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.40, Hero calls $2.40

really no questions here. he has nothing so i'm never leading out here. c/c seems obvious 'cause again he never has anything here.

i'll have a follow up question about what note to write on this guy and what to get out of the hand once the discussion's ready for results
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The Izebox
Old 06-30-2009, 07:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I dont like your flat preflop. You have to 3 bet that from any position. As played I would also 4 bet/shove preflop against this guy. Once you flat his three bet I really dont know what you can do unless youre prepared to stack off with that flop. IMO this hand was played way too passively
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The Izebox
Old 06-30-2009, 07:45 PM #3 (permalink)  
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As far what notes to put, lets say he shows you AJ suited at the showdown. I would put something like "3bet PF IP AJ, no cbet missed flop/turn"
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kmind
Old 06-30-2009, 07:57 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
I dont like your flat preflop. You have to 3 bet that from any position.
what?
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2ndline.4thstreet
Old 06-30-2009, 08:03 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
IMO this hand was played way too passively
I agree. I don't like the flat call pf - both to UTG's raise and the button's rr. And why c/c down? If he draws out its your own fault imo.
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The Izebox
Old 06-30-2009, 08:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
I dont like your flat preflop. You have to 3 bet that from any position.
what?
If youre not three betting JJ than what are you three betting with?
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surviva316
Old 06-30-2009, 08:32 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
If youre not three betting JJ than what are you three betting with?
plenty of stuff dependent on the opponent. but what am i 3b'ing for value against that exact opponent? QQ+, AK

i'm up for discussing if i should be 4b'ing this villain for value. i didn't feel comfortable doing it when the only read i had on him was that this was his 3rd 3b (i mean the rest of his stats didn't make him seem like a laggtard). does my huge FE make up for all the times i lose my stack here? surely i can't 4b/fold my JJ's, that seems like a retarded line.

as for checking all 3 streets, which one should i have led? i guess i could've led the turn and been happy if he folded and be in a better spot for him to check behind on the river. can't see an argument at all for betting the flop or river
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Cougar
Old 06-30-2009, 08:43 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Please explain why we "3bet JJ from any position".

Call with JJ in position would be my preferred approach vs. this villain.

If villain was REALLY loose leaving a continuation range that we are ahead of then I am ok with it.

In this case, I would contend that 3-betting will adjust villains range unfavorably for us folding out alot of hands we beat (22-99, KJ/AJ, sc's, etc.) and leaving us up against a tight range (1010+,AK+).

Any merit to a 1/2 pot river bet? We could potentially get value from 66,99,1010,87s,98s,A8,AK (no way villain has Q here)?
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kmind
Old 06-30-2009, 08:46 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
I dont like your flat preflop. You have to 3 bet that from any position.
what?
If youre not three betting JJ than what are you three betting with?
I'm not 3betting JJ because it plays better as a flat. It's not a winning play getting it in preflop at 10NL vs. most opponents and I don't want to waste it by 3bet/folding in this case. It allows us to have a stronger range postflop too as the PFC.

As for the hand, fold after the 3bet. You just don't have enough hands on him and I give people a ton of credit at first when they 3bet at this level.

As played, good. River is probably call>shove>fold
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The Izebox
Old 07-01-2009, 03:18 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
I dont like your flat preflop. You have to 3 bet that from any position.
what?
If youre not three betting JJ than what are you three betting with?
I'm not 3betting JJ because it plays better as a flat. It's not a winning play getting it in preflop at 10NL vs. most opponents and I don't want to waste it by 3bet/folding in this case. It allows us to have a stronger range postflop too as the PFC.

As for the hand, fold after the 3bet. You just don't have enough hands on him and I give people a ton of credit at first when they 3bet at this level.

As played, good. River is probably call>shove>fold
Im sorry i dont buy that JJ plays better as a flat. You might as well be playing 77 and set farming if your going to flat call preflop and go into a multiway pot and then fold to overs. And if you flat preflop in a HU pot then how do you know where you stand? Flop comes 222 and you flatted preflop are you stacking off here an hoping to see a bluff? If you flat preflop and the flop comes A57 do you float the flop and then fold the river? Im sorry but I feel that is very weak play. I 3bet JJ from all positions and its is one of my most profitible hands, even more so than aces and queens.
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surviva316
Old 07-01-2009, 05:35 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 neither example sounds very difficult because we have position. i mean the 222 hand seems embarrassingly easy to play. what tough spot could our opponent possibly put us in when he's OOP? even if he c/r over shoves the flop we still have good enough equity against his range to call.
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The Izebox
Old 07-01-2009, 03:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
neither example sounds very difficult because we have position. i mean the 222 hand seems embarrassingly easy to play. what tough spot could our opponent possibly put us in when he's OOP? even if he c/r over shoves the flop we still have good enough equity against his range to call.
I guess it comes down to playing style. I turn an excellent profit off of JJ, and I think that it adds to my image that I will three bet hands other than QQ Aks. Theres no way that playing JJ in multiway pots is a profitible play (by flatting PF). For JJ to have a chance it needs to be isolated HU, and I also like to know if someone has me beat PF by seeing a 4 bet/shove over my three. Otherwise youre playing JJ like 77, and it has much more value than that
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kmind
Old 07-01-2009, 03:41 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Lol at me not 3betting other hands than QQ+/AKs. Not sure why you say we are going to be playing a multiway pot either when we are the second one in? Why would we ever assume JJ = 77 by flatting preflop. That's just atrocious. Why waste a hands like JJ to an unknown by 3b/folding? You do understand what a (3bet) calling range is? We need to have reads before we should start 3betting it vs. an UTG raise.

Personally, I believe you have some mistakes preflop (ie flatting a 4bet 100bb deep (with AK). And it's not just personal style...
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kmind
Old 07-01-2009, 03:46 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
And if you flat preflop in a HU pot then how do you know where you stand? Flop comes 222 and you flatted preflop are you stacking off here an hoping to see a bluff? If you flat preflop and the flop comes A57 do you float the flop and then fold the river? Im sorry but I feel that is very weak play. I 3bet JJ from all positions and its is one of my most profitible hands, even more so than aces and queens.
What? This is a major major leak if you are thinking of hands like this.

You understand ranges, right? You understand playing stronger ranges in aggressive spots, right? To be clear, if the flop came 222, why would you ever get it in vs. most? Why do we have to raise? Calling is fine (vs. most). This is all player specific of course but you should only get it in if we crush his stacking off range. A75 is also usually a flat. It's all dependent on villain but wow. JJ > QQ and AA is just funny. You must not have played enough hands but you cannot try to tell me JJ is a better hand. It shouldn't even matter anyways.
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The Izebox
Old 07-02-2009, 04:09 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
And if you flat preflop in a HU pot then how do you know where you stand? Flop comes 222 and you flatted preflop are you stacking off here an hoping to see a bluff? If you flat preflop and the flop comes A57 do you float the flop and then fold the river? Im sorry but I feel that is very weak play. I 3bet JJ from all positions and its is one of my most profitible hands, even more so than aces and queens.
What? This is a major major leak if you are thinking of hands like this.

You understand ranges, right? You understand playing stronger ranges in aggressive spots, right? To be clear, if the flop came 222, why would you ever get it in vs. most? Why do we have to raise? Calling is fine (vs. most). This is all player specific of course but you should only get it in if we crush his stacking off range. A75 is also usually a flat. It's all dependent on villain but wow. JJ > QQ and AA is just funny. You must not have played enough hands but you cannot try to tell me JJ is a better hand. It shouldn't even matter anyways.
Yes i have made some mistakes preflop, as im sure you have. I seem to remember i nice little mistake of yours, such as 4 betting preflop with jack 8 offsuit IP and then not betting the flop/turn/river. Nice one on that kid.

Im going to be honest i dont appreciate the sarcastic tone that you are taking. I havent played in some time but ive posted some very healthy profits in my day that will compare to probably any player on this site. Please dont talk to me as if Ive played my first 10k hands of poker okay guy?

You go ahead and flat your JJs. when you learn to grow confidence in your postflop play and progress 12/8 poker, youll learn that JJ is an auto three bet from all positions in certain styles, such as the one that I play. But hey, you can keep flatting your aces preflop in the name of trickyness, but me, Im all about the profit, okay kiddo?
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spoonitnow
Old 07-02-2009, 04:22 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Hey who the hell is izybx? Has a lot of posts but it's the first time I've seen the screen name. Weird.

Also, 3-betting JJ isn't always +EV preflop. Blah blah move beyond blah blah styles blah blah, it's just not always +EV.
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The Izebox
Old 07-02-2009, 04:34 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Hey who the hell is izybx? Has a lot of posts but it's the first time I've seen the screen name. Weird.

Also, 3-betting JJ isn't always +EV preflop. Blah blah move beyond blah blah styles blah blah, it's just not always +EV.
You havent seen me because i havent posted in a couple years. I took a nice little break. Maybe its not always EV, but I think that in most cases its the correct move. Calling PF and then folding is not good poker, which is what The Nit is advocating
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kmind
Old 07-02-2009, 04:36 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Yes i have made some mistakes preflop, as im sure you have. I seem to remember i nice little mistake of yours, such as 4 betting preflop with jack 8 offsuit IP and then not betting the flop/turn/river. Nice one on that kid.

Im going to be honest i dont appreciate the sarcastic tone that you are taking. I havent played in some time but ive posted some very healthy profits in my day that will compare to probably any player on this site. Please dont talk to me as if Ive played my first 10k hands of poker okay guy?

You go ahead and flat your JJs. when you learn to grow confidence in your postflop play and progress 12/8 poker, youll learn that JJ is an auto three bet from all positions in certain styles, such as the one that I play. But hey, you can keep flatting your aces preflop in the name of trickyness, but me, Im all about the profit, okay kiddo?
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:37 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Hey who the hell is izybx? Has a lot of posts but it's the first time I've seen the screen name. Weird.

Also, 3-betting JJ isn't always +EV preflop. Blah blah move beyond blah blah styles blah blah, it's just not always +EV.
You havent seen me because i havent posted in a couple years. I took a nice little break. Maybe its not always EV, but I think that in most cases its the correct move. Calling PF and then folding is not good poker, which is what The Nit is advocating
When did I ever advocate this? In fact, I believe I made it quite clear that JJ does not = 77.

Seriously man you're making yourself look bad tbh.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:59 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Hey who the hell is izybx? Has a lot of posts but it's the first time I've seen the screen name. Weird.

Also, 3-betting JJ isn't always +EV preflop. Blah blah move beyond blah blah styles blah blah, it's just not always +EV.
You havent seen me because i havent posted in a couple years. I took a nice little break. Maybe its not always EV, but I think that in most cases its the correct move. Calling PF and then folding is not good poker, which is what The Nit is advocating
Since when is a -EV move correct?
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The Izebox
Old 07-02-2009, 05:54 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Hey who the hell is izybx? Has a lot of posts but it's the first time I've seen the screen name. Weird.

Also, 3-betting JJ isn't always +EV preflop. Blah blah move beyond blah blah styles blah blah, it's just not always +EV.
You havent seen me because i havent posted in a couple years. I took a nice little break. Maybe its not always EV, but I think that in most cases its the correct move. Calling PF and then folding is not good poker, which is what The Nit is advocating
Since when is a -EV move correct?
Im disagreeing you that it is -EV
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:02 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 Let's just say for the sake of telling a story that JJ is always +EV to 3bet preflop. (This is by no means a factual statement). This may be true, HOWEVER, it is certainly by no means the way which maximizes our expectation.

Whether a play is +EV or -EV itself isn't enough. In poker our goal is to maximize our expectation, and in the case of whether to 3bet JJ preflop or not, sometimes calling will maximize our expectation, and sometimes 3betting will maximize our expectation. The answer to which maximizes that expecation you seek lies in your opponents tendencies, their range, their perception of your range, etc. etc.

So pay attention and you'll figure out whether it's good or not.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:29 AM #23 (permalink)  
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lol at quoting a hand where kmind 4b J8 and calling him a nit in the same thread
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:03 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by izybx
Im sorry i dont buy that JJ plays better as a flat. You might as well be playing 77 and set farming if your going to flat call preflop and go into a multiway pot and then fold to overs.
who said we're folding to overs?

we're calling the flop 90% of the time obv
also, we flop an overpair half of the time or so

that's a huge difference from 77
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surviva316
Old 07-02-2009, 03:01 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 sssssooooooooo... should i have led the turn?

also the guy turned over K4s in the end. how should this change how i play against him in future 3b pots? i know the simple answer is ranges, so if i have KK and the flop comes J-high i don't have to assume he has AA like 50% of the time yadda yadda yadda, but should i be widening my calling range? that seems like it could get us in trouble. dare i start to incorporate 4b's as bluffs? i mean the most immediate adjustment i make when i have someone 3b'ing wide behind me (even if they never do it as a bluff) is to stop raising 22-66 and JTs in the first two positions
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:06 PM #26 (permalink)  
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preflop you played just fine.



Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
sssssooooooooo... should i have led the turn?
b/f turn imo, b/f non K/A river as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316

also the guy turned over K4s in the end. how should this change how i play against him in future 3b pots?
tighten up your PFR against a habitual 3bettor
ask yourself this, how would you have played this hand if you knew his range included K4s ?



izybx

if JJ is an auto 3bet to an UTG raiser, what hands are you hoping he calls with? If vill has typical UTG range here, then his 3bet calling/4bet range has you crushed. most anything else he folds, and I assume you arent hoping for a fold.

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Old 07-02-2009, 05:16 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 Sorry for derailing your thread, surviva, but I said I like it as played. I would have folded preflop until I had more hands/reads but I'm a nit.

This should make you adjust in the future. I personally like how he played it minus the river. Remember that this is a squeeze though not just a 3bet so you will have to keep that in mind in the future. If he continues to squeeze liberally you can start flatting preflop raises with nut hands but I would still wait after a few more squeezes. You can then start 4bet bluffing with an unbalanced range aka all bluffs and flatting with all nut hands. This is only if he folds to 4bets ld0. If you were in position you could call 3bets pretty liberally since he's shown he can be passive on the flop (and turn) which means we don't have to fold many flops and we call with less equitable(?) hands preflop than usual.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:27 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by surviva316
sssssooooooooo... should i have led the turn?
Dude... would you stop trying to get back to your original question already...
 
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:36 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kmind
Sorry for derailing your thread, surviva, but I said I like it as played. I would have folded preflop until I had more hands/reads but I'm a nit.

This should make you adjust in the future. I personally like how he played it minus the river. Remember that this is a squeeze though not just a 3bet so you will have to keep that in mind in the future. If he continues to squeeze liberally you can start flatting preflop raises with nut hands but I would still wait after a few more squeezes. You can then start 4bet bluffing with an unbalanced range aka all bluffs and flatting with all nut hands. This is only if he folds to 4bets ld0. If you were in position you could call 3bets pretty liberally since he's shown he can be passive on the flop (and turn) which means we don't have to fold many flops and we call with less equitable(?) hands preflop than usual.
quite the ballin' response. ty
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Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
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