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Buzz
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02-21-2006, 06:48 PM
Post subject: Interesting Situation
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 112
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Hey all, I'd like some advice on this one, as a beginner I dont think I played this situation well. This was a hand I played last night, but rather than posting a hand history in the appropriate forum I thought I'd make a post here more on the general concept.
Lets say you're OTB, with QT spades. Multiple limpers, no raisers. You decide to call also, the SB puts in to call, and the BB checks.
Flop comes 8c 9c Jc ... whoa, you flopped the straight! The flop doesnt seem to have helped anyone, as they all check to you. But wait, there's three clubs on the board, surely someone limped with suited cards, even if they are low suited trash. So you fire out a probe bet of about half the pot. The SB immediately to your left comes over the top with a raise, double your bet. Everyone else folds to you. Your read on the raiser is a fairly aggressive type player ... more than capable of repping he flush when he doesn't have it - but you also believe he is capable of playing it through the turn if he is bluffing.
Whats the correct play here? Re-raise, to see if he really wants to play? Call, then bet on the turn and see what he does? Or believe what he is saying, accept that becuase the is loose aggressive and he is perfectly likely to be holding something like 5c4c, esepcially in the SB, and fold?
For the record ... I folded. My reasoning was that even though I had a made hand, him being in the SB meant that he could easily be playing suited club trash, and got even luckier than me with the flop. I also figured that it was going to cost me a lot to find out if he had it ... he wasnt the type of player to lay down easily once he had made that raise. So on balance I layed down the hand. I spoke to a poker playing friend afterwards who thought I made the wrong play.
Appreciate some advice ... and this may be a good scenario for other beginners to learn from as well.
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Blinky
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: nutpeddlers anonymous
Posts: 459
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Stack size is absolutely critical here - can't give a good answer without that information. Is this a SnG? Cash game?
Good post on the general read though.
Remember against the SB you're playing against a totally random hand. Also worth noting:
- have you been button betting a lot (buying orphan pots)?
- has there been a lot of button betting on the table?
- does this player have a history of challenging bets or checkraising?
If the money is very short, this is an easy push. If the money is deep, it's a tougher problem...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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I think that most of the time in this spot, someone has a high card club when they come over the top of you. You can either bet pot or push the flop for your initial bet. As played I would have pushed over his reraise. If he hit the flush on the flop so be it and say gg nh.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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if the money is deep I call the minraise and see what he does when no club hits on the turn. If a club hits on the turn then it makes your decision real easy. Also, I would have bet more on the flop, maybe 3/4.
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NoctoZ
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 32
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I dont get the "probe" bet on the flop. Jam the flop and let them pay for drawing. I dont know wich stakes you play at, but at the lower stakes usually their will be someone chasing... Induce a mistake by betting hader is the best thing you can do.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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The part that makes this a fairly easy laydown is the MIN RAISE that he made. Especially if it looked like a kneejerk/automatic minraise. You were either beat or he had AcJ, which gave him tp and nut flush draw.
Since you're asking this question I assume you're playing pretty low stakes - also because there were mulitple limpers and no raise.
Here's how this works. The SB has only put in a half of a bet at this point, so he's not defending some previous big play or trying to "save his money". It's an easy fold for him...
ALSO, he's First to Act and he checked. If he wanted to REP the flush he would have done it with a bet from 1st position. HOWEVER, if he HIT THE FLUSH then he's going to check, hope someone else bets, then pop a quick minraise and hope they either call or push.
The fact that you flopped a straight here means nothing. You could have flopped top pair with a crappy kicker and it would have made no difference - your playing against a flush or at least a K high flush draw with multiple limpers. The ONLY hand that you can have here and have much of a chance is a set or 2 pair - because they can make a full house - but I wouldn't go throwing alot of chips at that probabilility.
Bottom line. Good fold - and good probe bet. EVERYONE ELSE AT THE TABLE (unless THEY have the flush) is thinking "crap, someone hit a flush". So any decent bet will take this hand unless someone else has a the K or A (possibly Q of clubs and wants to draw to a better flush). THE ONLY GUY WHO ISN'T THINKING "crap someone hit the flush" is the guy who ACTUALLY hit the flush. Even aggressive players flop flushes. And they often are in hands with Axs and Kxs. Good bet to feel him out and good fold.
Tip - the min raise shows Massive Strength, it's the PUSH RAISE that you might find suspicious. If this guy had pushed against your bet then I would put him on a bare Ace of Clubs and you're right to call and hope another club doesn't pop.
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Buzz
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 112
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Great advice - thanks. It was a cash game - yes it was micro 2nl becuase thats all my BR supports at this stage  Stacks were relatively even ... I think he had $1.85 and I was about $2.25.
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A beginner trying hard to learn not to be a donkey They say you should keep a journal so mine's online ... read here for a laugh!
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Whats the correct play here? Re-raise, to see if he really wants to play? Call, then bet on the turn and see what he does? Or believe what he is saying, accept that becuase the is loose aggressive and he is perfectly likely to be holding something like 5c4c, esepcially in the SB, and fold?
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5c4c will bet the flop, the last thing he wants is a free card for someone with a high spade.
As Aok said he may have Axc or Kxc, or he may have AcX, KcX and he thinks you are trying to buy the pot.
You did not invest much in the hand, and in order to figure out if you are ahead or behind you have to invest a lot.
Good fold
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