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cobere
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09-25-2006, 04:01 AM
Post subject: Interesting factoid - Ace on the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fort Collins
Posts: 336
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Was poking around Doyle's Super System 2, and found this little tidbit (subject is playing AA):
If there is an Ace on the flop, there will always be a possibility that your oppenent will have a straight draw (at least).
Low straight draw - A + any card 5 or lower (A49, A27, etc)
High straight draw - A + any card T or higher (AJ6, AT7, etc)
Middle straight draw - A + 2 cards between 5 and T (A79, A86, etc)
I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but its good info so I thought I'd post it here. Doyle says play your set of Aces fast, don't let someone draw cheaply to a gutshot.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Unless the board pairs ofcourse (A99 does not give a str8 draw, and you have a boat anyhow)
The fact that it always gives a str8 draw is pretty much meaningless, if you raised preflop you dont expect hands like 23 or 69 to call, so you usually have to worry only about broadway cards completing str8 draws.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
The fact that it always gives a str8 draw is pretty much meaningless, if you raised preflop you dont expect hands like 23 or 69 to call, so you usually have to worry only about broadway cards completing str8 draws.
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If you believe this, you're about to get smoked. I call tight raisers in position with these cards all the time.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
The fact that it always gives a str8 draw is pretty much meaningless, if you raised preflop you dont expect hands like 23 or 69 to call, so you usually have to worry only about broadway cards completing str8 draws.
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If you believe this, you're about to get smoked. I call tight raisers in position with these cards all the time. |
You may do so, be able to outplay them postflop, but most people fold 23 or 69 even with position to 5BB raise, and it is usually correct to do so
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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good point rondavu - The great thing about those tight players is you know exactly what they have and when you hit a flop on them with a weird hand, your going to get their stack -
correct to do so is a interesting term - In Limit you can't call raises with hands like those because you can only win so many bets with it....but in NL you can get whole stacks when you hit, so your implied odds are huge - Thats not to say that you call every raise with 2,3, but you can get away with it once in awhile cause when you hit you can really get paid off -
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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I call tight raisers in position with these cards all the time.
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I picked up on this a while ago by having fish make two pair on the flop and asking myself why I lost a stack to such a crap hand. When I hit the flop hard I would bet out, not knowing that a 54o hand check-calling and hitting 2 pair against my AK that paired the A54 rainbow was already behind. I've tried it fairly succesfully against rocks and TAGGs when in position. If I miss the flop I can't fold fast enough though. I'm finding that it is much easier now to play the 15/8 or 20/10 guys much easier than the telephones or moneybags (lol). Still get most of my money from thoseguys chasing str8's or flushes without odds and folding to my riverbets or calling with MPWK after catching something. It is nice to have a way to beat the tighter better players at $25NL.[/quote]
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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It's funny how people call huge bets with crap b/c of the 'implied odds'. Yes when you play pp's you have a decent shot at a set. But trying to flop 2 pair wit rags? Seems like an effective way to bleed off chips to me.
Basically what you are doing is calling a huge bet when you know you're drastically trailing. Um...? ... Odds of flopping 2 pair < 10 percent im pretty sure, so I guess
1. you'd have to be playing against a huge donk who overbets his AA/KK pf and then leads the flop. and
2. Get him to commit 10x his pf overbet by the river, even when facing resistance.
So if you facing a tremendous donk, who broadcasts all his hands, and will go allin with 1 pair, then u can call on 'implied odds'. But then again these players are giving it away on every hand anyway.
BTW i know u think ur cowboy when u call a 10bb bet with 69o on Party Poker in ur living room, and when 69j 'bow comes on the flop u think ur nostradomus. However u will understand how dumb u are when u realize that ur opponent's JJ did have a greater chance of making a set than ur 69 did of making 2 pair. 
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
The fact that it always gives a str8 draw is pretty much meaningless, if you raised preflop you dont expect hands like 23 or 69 to call, so you usually have to worry only about broadway cards completing str8 draws.
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If you believe this, you're about to get smoked. I call tight raisers in position with these cards all the time. |
You'll bleed a hell of a lot more calling raises with 2,3 or 6,9 than you'll make when you hit.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
BTW i know u think ur cowboy when u call a 10bb bet with 69o on Party Poker in ur living room, and when 69j 'bow comes on the flop u think ur nostradomus. However u will understand how dumb u are when u realize that ur opponent's JJ did have a greater chance of making a set than ur 69 did of making 2 pair. |
The rest of your post was decent, but was this part supposed to be funny? 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigslikk
It's funny how people call huge bets with crap b/c of the 'implied odds'. Yes when you play pp's you have a decent shot at a set. But trying to flop 2 pair wit rags? Seems like an effective way to bleed off chips to me.
Basically what you are doing is calling a huge bet when you know you're drastically trailing. Um...? ... Odds of flopping 2 pair < 10 percent im pretty sure, so I guess
1. you'd have to be playing against a huge donk who overbets his AA/KK pf and then leads the flop. and
2. Get him to commit 10x his pf overbet by the river, even when facing resistance.
So if you facing a tremendous donk, who broadcasts all his hands, and will go allin with 1 pair, then u can call on 'implied odds'. But then again these players are giving it away on every hand anyway.
BTW i know u think ur cowboy when u call a 10bb bet with 69o on Party Poker in ur living room, and when 69j 'bow comes on the flop u think ur nostradomus. However u will understand how dumb u are when u realize that ur opponent's JJ did have a greater chance of making a set than ur 69 did of making 2 pair. |
nobody said 10x...5xbb is a pretty large/standard raise from a tight player with AA,KK or AK - and nobody ever said we play them everytime...you don't call players with 6,9s in the BB everytime they raise preflop - Its called mixing it up - Have you played 25NL? Because the players there are MARRIED to AA,KK or hitting an A or K when they raise with AK...fact is when we hit 2 pair or something weird they DO stack off because they will not let those hands go....
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Ok... I guess there are many ppl out there that get married to the high pp... calling any 2 is ok, prob better than callin Ax anyway.
Just bringing up the general fact that u know that ur way behind- that if ur not sure that hes gonna destack by river than it wud be best not to try to run somethin at im, i.e. this would not work on ppl wit brains
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