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eragotte
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01-01-2010, 01:13 AM
Post subject: interesting 25NL hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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Okay you may hate this and I may be levelling but its interesting so lets discuss. Villain is running 26/22.5 over 102 hands. He just got stacked with his JJ getting it all in on a 963 rainbow vs 66 from a fish and is clearly spazz tilting on 3 different tables Im on with him. Pre is a standard fold obviously but I really want to play any suited connectors, pairs etc against him since I know he is laying me good implied odds.
Okay on the flop he bet $3 into $3.55 which is bigger than standard for him and generally I think he is trying to get paid with big hands and seems to bet smaller in his current deranged tilted state of mind, like $2 here with hands he wants to test the waters with like small non set pockets, and similarly with big pairs. The flop bet to me represents like A9/A4 maybe but mostly over cards, flush draws, a few random straight draws and pure air.
My reason for min-raising may be dumb, Im weighting his range strongly towards overcards, if he has pure air like say K5os he folds to the min raise, if he has KQ or something he calls the 3$ giving me more money when he doesnt hit and I barrel the turn. If he raises to $12 or so I have to fold but I think this is fairly rare. Most likely Im expecting either a fold or a call with a fold on the turn if he doesnt improve.
When he goes all in to me it screams to me that he has draws/air but the problem is some of his "air" could have me beat if he has like K4 or something and thinks he is bluffing or if he has like A9 of spades Im so killed.
So I have to call $20 to win $35.55. Ive played around with pokerstove and figure Im around 50/50 with how I read his hand so its a call for me. Am I retarded for thinking over pairs and sets are almost never hear? (although I guess this has a lot to do with my reads)... also is min raise retarded compared to $9?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($35.90)
Button ($32.70)
SB ($1.60)
Hero (BB) ($27.15)
UTG ($5.10)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 3 , 2
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Button bets $1.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.90, MP calls $0.90
Flop: ($3.55) 3 , 9 , 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets $3, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, Button raises to $31.55 (All-In), Hero calls $20 (All-In)
Total pot: $55.55
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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You simply do not have the sufficient reads on your opponent to know that most of what you've said is true (like the meaning of his flop bet-sizing or whatever range you used to suggest that you have 50% equity against his stacking-off range here or thinking that he would never play a set or overpair like this). No matter what he happened to show up with this one time, the play is absolutely terrible.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Yeah, choosing bottom pair no kicker to stack off just because you think he is tilting is a winning play. Keep it up.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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I hate everything really. maybe its slightly +ev...but hes been spewing for a bit and we have no reason to believe hes all of a sudden going to stop. Why not wait for a ++++EV spot? Like, stacking off with bp and trying to force a spewtard to fold oop just seems horrible.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,041
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it seems like you are looking to make a +ev situation in your mind out of one which is pretty marginal if not just altogether spewy. i do it quite often too, if there's a real fish at a table and everyone else is getting a piece. he may well be super tilted, but tilted people can still get dealt pocket pairs or A9 or whatever. he may have some air in his range but i'm thinking it's not going to be there near enough for this to be +ev.
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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so i figured these would be the answers you guys had for me, bad play period. now would anyone be willing to help me calculate what i need to have in order to call this all in?
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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Even if villain has 3d2d here you're still owned enough in the long run.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by eragotte
so i figured these would be the answers you guys had for me, bad play period. now would anyone be willing to help me calculate what i need to have in order to call this all in?
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what do you mean? hand or equity?
ii think you know how to calculate equity and such...but if not search for spoons "how to calculate calling an all in" and that should help.
but if its hand, then you're going about it the wrong way. Its not that this play is bad in a vacuum, you calculated a range for him, you were ahead, and you made the right decision against that range. The problem is that you decided to play 23s out of position against someone unlikely to give you any fold equity or free cards who could also potentially slow down on the scarier boards that hit your hand.
The real emphasis goes to playing oop against him though. Pokers about trading mistakes and we make smaller mistakes in position and make larger ones out of position. So if we're deciding to play a big pot, or we know that by playing we're getting a big pot no matter what, we might as well be in position when we do it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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Quote:
but if its hand, then you're going about it the wrong way. Its not that this play is bad in a vacuum, you calculated a range for him, you were ahead, and you made the right decision against that range. The problem is that you decided to play 23s out of position against someone unlikely to give you any fold equity or free cards who could also potentially slow down on the scarier boards that hit your hand.
The real emphasis goes to playing oop against him though. Pokers about trading mistakes and we make smaller mistakes in position and make larger ones out of position. So if we're deciding to play a big pot, or we know that by playing we're getting a big pot no matter what, we might as well be in position when we do it.
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okay i definitely see what youre saying, my argument was going to be that once the all-in is made A9 or 32 for me is not much different because to me his range is (rarely) stuff that has me killed and much more likely draws. either way im just dodging draw outs.
but ya i guess it definitely is retarded overall, i think a BIG leak of mine is dropping the level of my game closer to the level of the fish i am trying to take money from, i start limping oop with like 75s saying oh its +EV because the times i hit he pays me off so good... and calling oop with 32s 4.5bb pre... i gotta cut this shit
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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I see what you are attempting here, and catching the fish is a major hobby and a great adrenalin rush.
But RObbs post is worth a look
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...lh-t71663.html
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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good link, thank you. so much good stuff around this forum.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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[ ] Villain is laying us good implied odds.
[x] We are laying villain good implied odds.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Always fold pre. This is such a terrible hand. You can only make 3 straights with 23s compared to 6 with 56s. When you do make a pair, you can only beat 1pp in his range. When you make a FD, every other FD has you crushed. Even when you make a combo draw, your pair and your draw to 2 pair can easily be counterfitted by any hand if the board pairs.
Post flop: what everybody else said.
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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is the 56s thing relevant? this play is still bad pre if i have 56s or no?
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