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spoonitnow
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09-24-2008, 09:43 PM
Post subject: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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lol jk
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Great post as always spoon. And I absolutely agree with you on the fact that most people's main problem is their ego. They are too afraid to admit their stupidity, or whatever the case may be, because they don't want to be ridiculed because it hurts their feelings, and their precious ego even more. If you find yourself ALWAYS on the right side of every argument, then you are one of these people as well. You really need to understand that only once you no longer believe you are the best can you start to improve.
Immediate STICKY... and... SPOON FOR MOD '08.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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great post... as always... :P
thanks spoon...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Read the whole thing, and took 10 long deep breaths with my eyes closed. Actually, I got so relaxed I kinda lost track, so I did a coupla extra to make sure. So I don't think I did it right, 'cuz I don't feel like I have more willpower, but I'm relaxed and chilled and don't really give a f**k. Was that how it was supposed to work?
jk (except about losing count) vnh spoony. I will ponder this, and possibly even act.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Read the whole thing, and took 10 long deep breaths with my eyes closed. Actually, I got so relaxed I kinda lost track, so I did a coupla extra to make sure. So I don't think I did it right, 'cuz I don't feel like I have more willpower, but I'm relaxed and chilled and don't really give a f**k. Was that how it was supposed to work?
jk (except about losing count) vnh spoony. I will ponder this, and possibly even act.
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There's some possible crossover here with techniques to work on maintaining focus. Counting your breaths like that is one, and can become quite difficult especially if you're tired since you become so relaxed.
Now go count out 50 pieces of rice from a bag using a pair of tweezers. Just kidding. Not really.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Maintaining focus and discipline are attributes I possess, but I spend them (mainly) on work, family and exercise. I have this holdover habit from "gambool" days of "relax and enjoy" poker. But if I commit even a fraction of the impulse control I possess to playing/studying poker, I win lots more. Wouldn't that be more enjoyable?
Where I'm getting better is the dropping back to 2nl when I want to play but I'm not at my best. Even a horrible run isn't a whole 10nl BI. The poker hobby can be fun and profitable, I believe, is your point. Only playing my "competitive stakes" when I'm ready to compete would probably make me +EV monies at 25nl. Just simple impulse control. Ego containment.
I liked the post, and I'm planning some "will power" exercises, things like "not playing until I have studied 1 hour" and/or "not posting on FTR until I've analyzed 10 HH's. That type of thing. It's baby steps, like you say.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Maintaining focus and discipline are attributes I possess, but I spend them (mainly) on work, family and exercise. I have this holdover habit from "gambool" days of "relax and enjoy" poker. But if I commit even a fraction of the impulse control I possess to playing/studying poker, I win lots more. Wouldn't that be more enjoyable?
Where I'm getting better is the dropping back to 2nl when I want to play but I'm not at my best. Even a horrible run isn't a whole 10nl BI. The poker hobby can be fun and profitable, I believe, is your point. Only playing my "competitive stakes" when I'm ready to compete would probably make me +EV monies at 25nl. Just simple impulse control. Ego containment.
I liked the post, and I'm planning some "will power" exercises, things like "not playing until I have studied 1 hour" and/or "not posting on FTR until I've analyzed 10 HH's. That type of thing. It's baby steps, like you say.
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If you're better today than you were yesterday, then that's progress, and that's all we really look for.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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DaddyDeez
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: missoula, MT
Posts: 113
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very nice.
I even stopped reading in the middle, and went to fold the towels in the dryer before i came back to finish reading.
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I post nonconstructive piss
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaddyDeez
very nice.
I even stopped reading in the middle, and went to fold the towels in the dryer before i came back to finish reading.
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yeah well I stuck my nose to the doorknob for 10seconds like he said to do. 
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daven
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09-25-2008, 08:27 AM
Post subject: Re: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#10 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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very nice post. The biggest test on this front that I've faced is a game called shallow water blackout. Best played with people you trust (I did it with climbers I trust my life with), and I don't suggest this game unless you really want it. Better without drugs or alcohol. Bucket of water and tapping on a table with your head in the bucket. Your buddy/spotter pulls you out if you stop tapping. Not when the tapping gets erratic. The last moments before going unconscious are interesting. The waking up even more so...
It's like a version of holding your breath until you faint, but it has real consequences/risk. Aspirating has a pretty high rate of bad shit happening and will happen sometimes in this game
One further comment, I think that this
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I
Why improve our willpower? Let's say your current willpower can be expressed as a real number between 0 and x where x is the highest amount of willpower you are able to possess as a human being, and 0 means you have absolutely no willpower and you're dead. If all else stays the same, an increase in willpower would mean an increase in your productivity, effectiveness, and confidence in everything you do.
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is not quite right. It's also about, and dependent on, application, but you know that already
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Pig_Vomit
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 165
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Spoon this is exacly what i needs right now but i'm definetly to stupid to listen. What if i lack the willpower to get more willpower?
Daven that sounds really fucked up.
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spoonitnow
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09-25-2008, 12:21 PM
Post subject: Re: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#12 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
very nice post. The biggest test on this front that I've faced is a game called shallow water blackout. Best played with people you trust (I did it with climbers I trust my life with), and I don't suggest this game unless you really want it. Better without drugs or alcohol. Bucket of water and tapping on a table with your head in the bucket. Your buddy/spotter pulls you out if you stop tapping. Not when the tapping gets erratic. The last moments before going unconscious are interesting. The waking up even more so...
It's like a version of holding your breath until you faint, but it has real consequences/risk. Aspirating has a pretty high rate of bad shit happening and will happen sometimes in this game
One further comment, I think that this
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I
Why improve our willpower? Let's say your current willpower can be expressed as a real number between 0 and x where x is the highest amount of willpower you are able to possess as a human being, and 0 means you have absolutely no willpower and you're dead. If all else stays the same, an increase in willpower would mean an increase in your productivity, effectiveness, and confidence in everything you do.
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is not quite right. It's also about, and dependent on, application, but you know that already |
Obv, but that's true about everything. It's like saying an increase in money will make you richer, then saying well not really if you don't spend it. :]
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Robb
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09-25-2008, 12:24 PM
Post subject: Re: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#13 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
The last moments before going unconscious are interesting. The waking up even more so...It's like a version of holding your breath until you faint, but it has real consequences/risk. Aspirating has a pretty high rate of bad shit happening and will happen sometimes in this game
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That's f'd up, Daven, but in an intriguing way.
Piggy, you will either (A) develop some poker willpower or (B) be VERY broke. I took poker 2 years as entertainment and blew through $300 at the micros playin' 60/40/4 screw-it-all poker. A year of that, I started working on my game. I still like to gambool, but most of my improvements have come from discipline-related decisions.
1. I learned to fold junk preflop (VPIP < 15 at 6max)
2. I learned to not chase when I missed the flop
3. I learned not to cbet EVERY time
I got disciplined enough to kill off the degen gambool-demons within when the pain of losing $$ became severe. Now that I'm an overall winner at poker, I still need more discipline to keep improving and moving up where (if I understand spoony's posts at all) I will need even more willpower and discipline.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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spoon for mod. ldo.
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cowboyardee
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09-25-2008, 03:10 PM
Post subject: Re: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#15 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
The biggest test on this front that I've faced is a game called shallow water blackout. Best played with people you trust (I did it with climbers I trust my life with), and I don't suggest this game unless you really want it. Better without drugs or alcohol. Bucket of water and tapping on a table with your head in the bucket. Your buddy/spotter pulls you out if you stop tapping. Not when the tapping gets erratic. The last moments before going unconscious are interesting. The waking up even more so...
It's like a version of holding your breath until you faint, but it has real consequences/risk. Aspirating has a pretty high rate of bad shit happening and will happen sometimes in this game
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As a medical professional, I feel sort of obligated to suggest that no one play this game, regardless of willpower, lack thereof, or having very trusted friends. Ever. People can very easily die from this, even if your spotters are quick to do their jobs. And not only by drowning.
No offense intended to daven.
And good thread, spoon.
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spoonitnow
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09-25-2008, 03:31 PM
Post subject: Re: Impulse Control, Willpower, and Ego
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#16 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cowboyardee
Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
The biggest test on this front that I've faced is a game called shallow water blackout. Best played with people you trust (I did it with climbers I trust my life with), and I don't suggest this game unless you really want it. Better without drugs or alcohol. Bucket of water and tapping on a table with your head in the bucket. Your buddy/spotter pulls you out if you stop tapping. Not when the tapping gets erratic. The last moments before going unconscious are interesting. The waking up even more so...
It's like a version of holding your breath until you faint, but it has real consequences/risk. Aspirating has a pretty high rate of bad shit happening and will happen sometimes in this game
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As a medical professional, I feel sort of obligated to suggest that no one play this game, regardless of willpower, lack thereof, or having very trusted friends. Ever. People can very easily die from this, even if your spotters are quick to do their jobs. And not only by drowning.
No offense intended to daven.
And good thread, spoon. |
Thank you.
And yeah I agree, that's kind of like testing your willpower by seeing how many times you can slam your head into a rock amirite.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Thank you Spoon.
I need more time to digest this more fully, but I see the point. And yes, I placed my nose on the desktop for 10 deep breaths... it is funny, at #8 I wanted to stop, feeling stupid and saying "How will they know?" but I kept it up knowing that character is built when you do the right thing, even when no one is looking... thus I persisted, completed the last two even slower than the first.
I think you have a talent for this kind of thing Spoon, your ideas make sense and this may turn out to be a very powerful message... I do want to review it again and see how well I can implement it.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Immediate STICKY... and... SPOON FOR MOD '08.
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And daven... I respect you as a player and all, but To be perfectly honest, that's not cool or fun. It's perfectly fucking retarded. The fact is, the "choking game" you refer to when you say "it's like that, but it has real consequences/risk." IS dangerous and DOES have consequences.
Shallow Water Blackout=Dumbfuck little kid game.
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DaddyDeez
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: missoula, MT
Posts: 113
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haha daven your a badass but plz stop doing that shit m8.
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I post nonconstructive piss
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Nose on a door knob... meh, but safe...
Head in a bucket... no goot, and maybe dead...
......
I'm too old for this sh!t 
P.S. I get you vibe Spoon on the OP... that's some zen sh!t but in the general sense, I think you make sense (like usual...) I do think that most people benefit more from your sage (but more practical) sh!t about when to fold KK on the flop, but that may just be me being too results oriented...
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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yeah, we stopped playing that game after a near miss.... but, the point i was making was about willpower! the game evolved after a serious hold-down surfing a heavy wave and a realisation that decent lungs are a good asset.
spoon -it's not like headbutting a rock. More like a kickboxer training their shins and quads...
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Spoon, I don't know if I can continue it but I am working on it... I took this to heart last evening and successfully played well after some studying, then did an hour long review of my session. I took my time, expressed some willpower and played under control.
I will keep updates on it in my operation post.
Thank you for the insight and I am putting this to good use.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
yeah, we stopped playing that game after a near miss.... but, the point i was making was about willpower! the game evolved after a serious hold-down surfing a heavy wave and a realisation that decent lungs are a good asset.
spoon -it's not like headbutting a rock. More like a kickboxer training their shins and quads...
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It's more like the russian roulette
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
yeah, we stopped playing that game after a near miss.... but, the point i was making was about willpower! the game evolved after a serious hold-down surfing a heavy wave and a realisation that decent lungs are a good asset.
spoon -it's not like headbutting a rock. More like a kickboxer training their shins and quads...
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It's more like the russian roulette |
Yeah... stick to games that are +EV.
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Sue me if I play too long....
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
spoon -it's not like headbutting a rock. More like a kickboxer training their shins and quads...
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That's a pretty shitty analogy.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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Pretty brave game daven, sounds like waterboarding and considering we can't even do that to prisoners of war, it takes some spine to do it willingly...
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OhBollocks
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 240
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Why isnt this a sticky yet?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by OhBollocks
Why isnt this a sticky yet?
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Because people are afraid of 1) work, 2) failure, and 3) introspection.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ns-t75768.html
I posted the link in this thread already. It will be there soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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OhBollocks
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by OhBollocks
Why isnt this a sticky yet?
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Because people are afraid of 1) work, 2) failure, and 3) introspection. |
Thats the truth. And I dont say that to slate anyone
Dont forget:
4) Change
5) The unknown
And the ultimate weight on evolutions back is.... apathy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by courtiebee
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/post-your-digest-nominations-t75768.html
I posted the link in this thread already. It will be there soon.
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YEAH YEAH EXCUSES EXCUSES
=P
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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