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Robb

07-14-2008, 12:19 AM Post subject: Improving FTR - Get to work, dammit!!

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,068

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

FTR is the best damn poker forum in the world. Bar none. But even so, FTR can get stale. Same posts, different author. Same ideas, same discussions. The constant recycling is good and bad. Good for noobies who just got here or those who just started hanging out in a new strategy forum, but bad for those of us who have posted in "bankroll management" threads over and over and over. The advantage of FTR is that it's a community that actually talks to each other. Very little flaming. Lots of regs answering posts from noobies and beginners. Solid critiques on game play and every other topic related to poker, all directed by those interested enough to start a thread. And it's FREE. The only disadvantage at FTR is that we often say the same things we've said before, but less perfectly than they've been said the past.

Ask not what FTR can do for you, but what you can do for FTR!!

Suppose we develop a coherent way to recycle "vintage" posts so we can stop reinventing the flat tire. Suppose we add "new" content by bringing great "old" content back into view. That helps noobies and those of us who may have missed it the first time. We can also leverage the learning of great FTR players from "back in the day" when they were playing closer to the levels we're playing now.

Too often on FTR, we start from scratch with a thread, but instead of reinventing the wheel, we do a half-assed job. The reinvented flat tire. Most of us only check the top ten current posts in any forum. But we can also help other FTR guys by pointing out great threads from previous months and years. In less time than it takes to reply, we could post three relevant links to threads that cover the topic much more thoroughly than we have time to. And when we're stumped, we can still contribute something valuable with a related thread link.

I have a dream, that some day, 20 or 30 FTR microstakes hobbiests, like myself, will be actively recycling vintage FTR content through new threads and making it easy for newcomers to dig deep into all this great content we have archived. Here are two recent posts of mine where I linked to vintage threads the person could read and benefit from: (1) Cbetting and Semibluffing, my reply is 4th post in thread, and (2) Working on postflop play, my reply is 5th post in thread.

Your job is to make FTR better!!

Here's how noobies like you and me can help. Start an operation thread, and in a post near the top have a "links" post you can edit over and over. When you find a truly valuable but non-digest/unstickied thread, link to it with a short description of its value. Here's a link to mine: Operation Winning is a Habit. The 2nd post contains dozens of links to great FTR content. As you can see, the text I have there describing the content is easy to paste into other threads and can help them know what to look for.

This is so cool, even noobies can do it. Confused about what advice to give? Just paste in a couple of links on topic that really helped you. Leave it at that. How do we find thread links to store there? Here are some ideas.

1. Search your old posts.

Go back a few months and see what threads you posted in and learned from. When they are top notch, keep the links somewhere - like your operation thread. If a thread really helped you improve or caused a revelation, it will likely help someone else. It will also help you identify your FTR icons - the players whose posts and threads you really respect. If you aren't already keeping a mental list, start. Check the digests for ideas. I have many, and this list is in NO WAY complete, but I like reading stuff by Fnord, Spoony, Eupho, 500lbgorilla, Renton, jyms and so forth.

2. Search recent posts by your FTR icons.

Click on their "profile" button at the bottom of any post they make. On the profile page, there is a link to "find all posts by ___ ." Click it, and scan the middle column for threads they initiated that are in the forums that cater to your interests. Anything these guys post in the Beginner's Forum is generally meant for teaching, and is generally good. Find a good thread? Reread it and link to it.

3. Search OLD posts by your icons.

Same as above, only click the last pages and start reading. Example, Fnord's will show almost 100 pages of posts (15k+ posts - ZOMFG!!). Currently, click on page 97 and see his posts from when he was playing 25nl. This helps in two ways. First, you'll identify a bunch more FTR icons, and listen in as they talk to each other, when they were learning what we're learning now. Second, you'll see that only 2 or 3 years ago, these guys were where we're at now, 25nl or 50nl, and you'll see how far they've come. Their posts are good, but not so long ago they were struggling with questions we can almost answer now. You read the threads and see 3 or 4 guys you know are solid now talking about cbetting, when to check/call vs. when to bet/fold, river bluffs, and so forth, and they're discussing at a level that is similar to our current level. You know that those thoughts and discussions helped them become better. Read and learn. Link to anything interesting.

The current FTR icons learned from the SuperIcons. Read Fnord's old posts, and you'll find Gabe posting two whole sentences instead of two words, and replying to questions rather than only posting once per thread. I'm not bashing Gabe - he still posts a lot and his thoughts on poker are solid. It's just that you get a better idea of how he thinks about poker from the time when he was more active in the low limit forums and the beginner's forum. Don't complain that someone like Spoony or ISF is less active than he used to be, go find his stuff from when he was here 24/7.

4. Learn to use the search engine.

I'm not a huge fan since I get a lot of irrelevant hits, and the FTR interface is kinda slow. But if you learn to use AND/OR in your search queries, you'll soon be able to search the content coherently. Example: you're thinking about cbets when you have a big draw. Enter "cbet AND draw" in the search. You'll get about 20% of the hits that are meaningful discussions on topic and that apply to your game/level.

5. Read OLD posts from the forums.

What forum hits your specialty? SSNL? FRNL? MTT's? Go there and click to a couple hundred pages back from the recent posts. Scan the threads posted a year ago on FTR. If your specialty is 6max, go to the short handed forum, and check the posts from 2007. There will be lots of good info that is still relevant.

A few more things:

A. Don't leave FTR for another forum, even 2+2. Sure, I VERY occasionally check another site, but I find that most of the great content and ideas from the other places either find their way to FTR (thanks to the FTR icons) or have already been discussed at FTR. IMO, FTR is the BEST poker forum anywhere, and it has the best record of solid players posting replies to beginner's and intermediate players that ACTUALLY help them improve their game-specific issues. Let's keep it the best - noobies, it's time for us to do our part!!

B. You'll learn a ton from all the legwork - it's worth it to read some of the golden oldies. Yes, online poker has changed in the past year or two. But K9s is still K9s, maniacs are still maniacs, and value town is still located at value town. No offense, but in "current" threads, I often have trouble distinguishing between comments from "great" players and "mediocre" or "bad" players. By reading stuff from a year ago, you have an "acid test" to apply to the posts - pay special attention to someone who has moved up, become professional and generally kicked some poker ass over a 9-month period or a year.

Just my $.02. It's my 1,000th post. I thought I should contribute something meaningful. Since I suck at poker, I thought I'd try to propose a way to improve the accessibility of the great content on FTR.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

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07-14-2008, 01:30 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

When you're done making love to the forum, you should.... eh, never mind. It's just too easy. But seriously, good post dude. I use the search feature a shit ton here and I've probably read more old posts/essays lately than I have new ones. There's just something about archived content. Re-inventing the wheel is fine but there's nothing like the classics.

Ok, I'll start...

Here's one of my favorite posts, simply because if I ever needed to explain why I sometimes half-stack in cash games, I can just point them to this post.

The Half Stack Buy-In Strategy for NLHE (Essay)

Half Stack Buy-In Strategy for NLHE (Discussion)

xptboy

07-14-2008, 02:38 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2008

Location: Brussels

Posts: 187

at first this post made me lol
then I went hmm...
then I was ahhh...
and now I'm like WTF THIS POST IS THE ROXXORZ (xclamation markx20)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Xianti

07-14-2008, 04:45 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: facebook.com/xianti

Posts: 5,289

Excellent post, Robb. These tips are tremendously valuable. Remember, also, that there is a Search FTR link at the bottom of every page (in the footer links). The Google site search often works better than the forum's native search tool, depending on what you are searching for.

I will soon be making some changes to help you, our forum members, find quality content and identify the quality posters. These changes, along with your tips, will make everyone's FTR reading experience a much more rewarding one.

Thanks again, Robb, for your great insight and dedication to our community!

Xianti

07-14-2008, 04:49 AM

#5 (permalink)

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I'll sticky this after it gets more exposure as a regular topic.

speedcake

07-14-2008, 07:52 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: Tampa

Posts: 434

good stuff, thumbs way up

Galapogos

07-15-2008, 05:05 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,322

Nice post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

Outlaw

07-15-2008, 03:22 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Why not make an index.. a one stop shop for all general topics? Each index topic would open into a thread with a ton of links more specifically addressing each topic. Example of the index top thread:

Cash games
3-betting
Short-stacking
6-max
Full Ring
3-betting
Position
ABCD
Extracting value
ev
BR management
HUD
Bluffing
Semi-bluffing
Donk bets
C-betting
etc

MTTs

ICM
Bubble play
Middle Play
C-betting
Deals
Position
Stop and go
BR Management

SNGs

ICM
Stop and go
BR Management
etc
etc
etc
Alphabetized of course

Each specific topic would have guides, tons of stickied threads

It would work like an easily navigable tree of poker info.

Everytime the community agrees on the importance of a new thread, it is stickied and added to the relevant indexes.

This might seem daunting, but if everyone collaborates it could slowly be built over the next few months, and it would make all of our lives easier when it comes to making sure we are only expounding on old ideas, not reinventing anything.

Pino_Diablo

07-15-2008, 03:50 PM

#9 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 64

great post, yet don't all message boards suffer from the same dilemma?

i haven't been here long enough to make any useful suggestions.

this board (website) has been the best thing to happen to my game though. it opened my eyes to what winning poker is mostly all about. i was essentially a real bad player who got just lucky enough to stay hooked. now i am improving my game (and bankroll) slowly.

i'm having more FUN (most of the time)

JKDS

07-15-2008, 04:05 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

do what outlaw says. it rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

Robb

07-16-2008, 12:30 AM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,068

Your suggestion, outlaw, is good but would require dozens of serious FTR dudes to spend several weeks working to put together. It would be good if it happened.

What I'm suggesting is a way a single person can (A) learn more when the content here starts feeling "stale" and (B) recycle vintage posts DIRECTLY into noobie's posts without him having to search for it.

If 20 of us did that consistently for two months, we would unearth a couple of hundred great posts and threads and recycle them through the forums. They would be categorized in the CURRENT threads whose subject lines interest us.

The other upside is this: if it became an FTR habit, we'd soon develop a thread-link "history." You link to one thread on cbetting in which others have linked to good threads in which others have linked...and soon a single link would provide dozens of related threads to scan through and learn from.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Robb

07-16-2008, 12:32 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,068

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pino_Diablo

I could have written this post myself (and probably did something very like it) about 9 months ago. Good job, gettin' in here and learning. And winning.

Good luck!!

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

spoonitnow

07-16-2008, 01:06 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

This might be a bad spot to post this buuuut:

http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

bjsaust

07-16-2008, 01:13 AM

#14 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

To be fair, the stickies on each forum have lots of great links that I doubt many people read already.

Just playing to improve.

Outlaw

07-16-2008, 01:17 AM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

This might be a bad spot to post this buuuut:

http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm

That's very close to what I had in mind.. we need that here. I read a few of their posts.. ours are much better imo

dranger7070

10-07-2009, 04:04 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy

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dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

Just found this thread linked in Illfavor's blog, and I think this deserves a bump in the BC, as I feel things are going kind of stale again, but I came onto FTR a couple months after this was posted and teh content was amazing. Hopefully, it gets back to those ballin' ass ways!

surviva316

10-07-2009, 05:16 PM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

timely bump. i was starting to question whether the quality of content had gone down, or if i was just starting to get elitist now that i'm actually like kind of winning in pokerz

i really like outlaw's idea and would love to see that actually happen. i'd be willing to help out with this over my winter break

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

dranger7070

10-07-2009, 05:19 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Yea, I got plenty of time sitting around the apartment for the next couple months, so I could help set this up as well. If we could find even a couple more people, we'd be good to go I think.

Robb

10-07-2009, 06:42 PM

#19 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dranger7070

Yea, I got plenty of time sitting around the apartment for the next couple months, so I could help set this up as well. If we could find even a couple more people, we'd be good to go I think.

If someone wants to head it up, I'll help out, too. I bet we could find a kind mod to help us, maybe by making it a perma-sticky in the BC.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Xianti

10-07-2009, 07:42 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Isn't the anthology idea basically what the Digest is already doing?

If you guys can organize it better and update it to be more comprehensive, I would be very grateful. Start a new one and if it passes muster with your BC moderators, it can be the new BC Digest.

I might even ship you some FTR goodies.

dranger7070

10-07-2009, 07:45 PM

#21 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2008

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*gets to work*

Bradley

10-07-2009, 09:01 PM

#22 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Leveling myself at the low stakes tables

Posts: 73

Great post, Robb.

This place is indeed much better than most other forums, people just seem way more mature here.
I will be making an operation thread with links for sure in the near future! I don't have much time though as I work, go to college etc. But I'll try to do my best.

I remember I read your noobie guide 2 years ago, had to quit after 2 months but I recently started playing again, slowly grinding! Older threads were very good indeed..

It's important to keep the forum alive, I think about poker a lot and maybe we can come up with some sort of theory/strat post by gaining old information and adding our current knowledge to it. That's your point right?

Robb

10-07-2009, 09:03 PM

#23 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,068

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

Isn't the anthology idea basically what the Digest is already doing?

Not necessarily. Some of the thread discussions aren't really Digest Articles. They're HH's or questions that lead to awesome posts later in the thread, so you have to dig through them a bit. Here are some examples from my anthology/digest:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Playing PP's Read Lukie's post, 3rd from top, and follow from there. Discusses playing small pp's in midstakes games, but the concepts are pretty well explained, especially in Fnord's, Renton's, Miff's, and Lukie's posts throughout thread. At the end, thread hits implied odds for sc's, and JefferyGB weighs in with more great content. This thread got me to dump the silly 10x set odds in favor of 15x at 10nl and 20x at 25nl.

BigSpenda's Advice for Beginners thread which starts off on how to play big hands postflop and meanders through bet-sizing for several different scenarios. Thread wanders a bit - read all posts by spenda and miffed, though.

Spoon's Betting Against a Flush Draw thread, with excellent discussion. Read BankitDrew's analysis toward bottom. Warning - short!!

My point is that, if you read those threads, some of the content is mediocre. They're great threads but you need to know whom you should pay most attention to.

Maybe we could add a section to the Beginner's Digest that contains whole threads (locked), with some pointers like those above to point noobies to the content they should focus on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

If you guys can organize it better and update it to be more comprehensive, I would be very grateful. Start a new one and if it passes muster with your BC moderators, it can be the new BC Digest.

I might even ship you some FTR goodies.

I'm willing to work on the project. I like searching old threads and finding great stuff that isn't organized elsewhere on the site. We might also organize links to the strategy articles that would especially apply to beginners (yes, I know, many of them are already in there, but maybe we could add a few more).

Also, I'm not an MTT/SnG player, so if we do this we need a reg that understands those types of pokerz and get good noobie content for them.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

BooG690

10-07-2009, 09:47 PM

#24 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 1,439

Did I hear free FTR goodies? I luz free shirts.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.

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