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Importance of Position...

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Laeelin

01-25-2006, 12:44 AM Post subject: Importance of Position...

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,137

One of the most important lessons to learn in hold’em is just how powerful position is. Anyone who knows even a little about hold’em has been told that position is important, but even a short visit to the low limit tables will show you that this concept is not understood at all by most players.

If your in position you can maximize profits and minimize losses.

I’m going to try to give a couple simple (and true) examples of how to use position and why position is so important.

(preflop play removed to shorten histories)

Villain ($77.65)
Hero ($142.05)

Hero has K

, A

.

Flop: ($8.50) 2

, T

, 5

(2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $5, Villain calls $5.

Turn: ($18.50) 9

(2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: ($18.50) A

(2 players)
Villain bets $7, Hero raises to $14, Villain calls $7.

Hero wins Pot: $46.50

On the flop, I make a continuation bet which he calls. At this point I suspect he has the better hand, and i'm willing to give him the pot.

But, because I have position on him, he doesnt know that i'm weak until it's to late. He checks to me on the turn expecting me to bet and instead I check and get to see the river for free. position gave me the ace on the river for free. Then position also allowed me to make another $7 on the hand because I was able to reraise his bet on the river.

Now lets see what this hand would have been like out of position....

Villain ($77.65)
Hero ($142.05)

Hero has K

, A

.

Flop: ($8.50) 2

, T

, 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $5, Villain calls $5.

Turn: ($18.50) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $7, Hero folds.

Hero loses Pot: $18.50

I make that same continuation bet on the flop, and he calls, just like last time. However, this time when the turn arrives I must act first. I dont want to put money into the pot with the worse hand so I must check. He then bets and I must fold my hand because of the bad odds i'm getting. Even if i had made the bad call and reached my ace on the river I still would have won less on the hand because he would have called my bet and I would have never had the chance to reraise him on the river.

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?

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donkbee

01-25-2006, 05:42 AM

#2 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

A very clear example, nice job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

vqc

01-25-2006, 06:23 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 5,427

really good post.

Irisheyes

01-25-2006, 05:22 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Really clear example, good post. The value of position is something I really feel I don't understand properly, if you'd like to make another post like this I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd appreciate it.

Warpe

01-25-2006, 06:20 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

NH. Fix your typos though...position doesn't have that many s's in it.

aokrongly

01-26-2006, 02:59 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 863

screw the typos. lol nissssssssssssse pooossssssssssstt

rich just start a thread asking about position and you'll have great fun. Players LOOOVE talking about position like geeks love talking about science. The nut of position - to me - is that it equals INFORMATION. The more you have the better decisions you can make, the less you have the worse mistakes you might make. As demonstrated by the post that started the thread. Good Position (information) for the hero meant he made more money when he won and lost less when he lost. Bad information for the villian means he lost more when he lost and he won less when he won.

fun stuff. You can "flip" position by making interesting bets and raises, you can "take" position in some instances. Or you can negate position by going ALL IN. That makes position irrelevent for the rest of the hand.

nice post.

Laeelin

01-26-2006, 08:39 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,137

Here is another example showing jsut how critical position can be.

Hero has A

, K

.

Flop: ($13.50) 4

, K

, 3

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $6, UTG+2 calls $6, Villain calls $6.

Turn: ($31.50) Q

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Villain checks, Hero checks.

After both 2 called the flop (I should have bet a little more, but that’s a different problem) I suspected that one might be on the flush draw. If so, I'm drawing dead with a good enough hand to lose some money on. Thankfully I don’t need to pay to find out because, once again, I have position.

I don’t bet anything on the turn so that I give myself a cheap showdown. This time I'm not after a free card (in fact I'm giving a free card away). This time I just want to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible.

Anyone with the flush that was thinking of pulling a check raise, or check calling just lost a lot of value. Not only that, but anyone planning on BLUFFING the flush cant make a play now either. Instead of them reaching the river with a $60+ pot to value bet or bluff into, they only have a $31.50 pot to work with on the river.

River: ($31.50) 4

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Villain bets $10, Hero calls $10, UTG+2 folds.

Now the villain makes his move. He makes a nice value bet. I suspect that he probably has the flush, but, because of position.... I now make money if the better is bluffing just one out of four times.

Against this player I knew that calling was +EV, so I called.

Ok, let’s take a look at this same hand out of position...

Hero has A

, K

.

Flop: ($13.50) 4

, K

, 3

(3 players)
Hero bets $6, UTG+2 calls $6, Villain calls $6.

Nothing really changed on the flop. I still bet, they still call.

Turn: ($31.50) Q

(3 players)

When the flush hits on the turn and I'm out of position, one phrase comes to mind...

"Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into"

Things get REALLY ugly really fast. I have 2 plays, and both are bad.

First, I can check.. Thats nice and safe right?

1) Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, Villain bets $10, Hero ???

The check here says "the pot is yours, take it". I just gave the pot away to any aggressive player (ps: this works well when you have the flush against an smart player as well) When he bets not only am I putting money into the pot against what I fear might be flush, but I still need to survive another round of betting. Never forget about the river. What will happen on the river if I call?

What if I bet and he min raises me?
What if I check and he value bets?
Just how much more money and I willing to lose on this hand?

So if checking is bad, lets try a bet. After all I still have a good chance of having the best hand.

2a) Hero bets $10, UTG+2 folds,Villain raises to $20, Hero ????

2b) Hero bets $10, UTG+2 folds,Villain calls $10

Again, I’m left in a horrible position. Best case for winning the hand is if he calls, but what do I do on the river? Check? Value bet? Any move I make either gives the pot away, or loses even more money.

River: ($51.50) 4

(3 players)

1) Hero checks, Villain bets $15, Hero ???

What do you do here? Let him have a $50 pot for a $15 bet?

2) Hero bets $15, Villain raises to $30, Hero ???

Can you fold to just another $15 when the pot is sitting at $95??

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?

Miffed22001

01-26-2006, 10:23 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

Although its giving free cards on a dangerous board this is why the check raise is so effective.
It be surprised if villain cant resist betting into that pot on a semi bluff with his flush draw.

WhooFleuryScores

01-28-2006, 04:45 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

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I think def so position is huge.Folding AJo UTG is far different then raising a MP limper in the CO.Amen to position!.

SinkRox

03-03-2006, 04:37 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Brighton, UK

Posts: 624

Quote:

Originally Posted by aokrongly

fun stuff. You can "flip" position by making interesting bets and raises, you can "take" position in some instances.

AOk can you give an example plz?

Experimenting - 200NL 5max.

"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life

aokrongly

03-03-2006, 05:28 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 863

Sure, the min raise freeze play, flips position. In this scenario you are in early position with KQ of hearts. (this is really a late position play, but it's the easiest example i can think of)

Flop comes J high with 2 hearts. You have a strong heart draw and 2 overcards. You are in early position. You check and it checks around to someone in late position who bets something reasonable, 30% of the pot. As soon as it hits you you minraise. The 1, 2 or 3 middle players fold.

Now late position guy is going to do 1 of 2 things, he's going to come back at you or he's going to call. There's a small chance he folds here, but it's not worth calculating. The next card comes. If it's a kq or heart, great. But let's say it isn't. You check. Now the other player can either bet or check. HOWEVER, HE'S GOING TO BE VERY VERY THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO BEHIND HIM. In other words, YOU have position on him at this point. If he's really strong then he'll bet strong and you can fold, if he's really unsure he'll check. If he wants to test you then he will make a small bet.

Let's look at where we stand, we have a strong draw 2 ways. Either a heart or an overcard and in 2 of the 3 scenarios we got exactly what we wanted, a cheap or free draw for the river. In 1 scenario we bowed out of the hand.

How much did it cost us? It cost us a minimum raise on the flop and WE got to decide if we wanted to pay it or not by checking first.

It's the min raise freeze play (out of position), but it's the same concept. We used a tactical raise on the flop to control the action on the turn when we had really strong 2 way draw (the flush and the overcards).

Make sense?

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