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Fnord
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12-04-2005, 04:01 AM
Post subject: I'm been hanging around you nits too much...
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#1 (permalink)
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GAMB00LPoker&SportBook.com
100NL
Tight player UTG opens for 4x. He has about $100
I'm UTG+2 with A K and muck.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
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Nice hand Cnhevrolet.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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thats tight even id like to see a flop there!
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
thats tight even id like to see a flop there!
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Besides a broadway or flush draw kinda thing, what flop are you really liking here enough to go 100bb with this guy?
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
thats tight even id like to see a flop there!
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Besides a broadway or flush draw kinda thing, what flop are you really liking here enough to go 100bb with this guy? |
An ace or a king...
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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No way I make this fold short-handed.
Anyway, I think I lose a lot and win a little on a Axx or Kxx flop against this guy's range.
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
thats tight even id like to see a flop there!
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Besides a broadway or flush draw kinda thing, what flop are you really liking here enough to go 100bb with this guy? |
An ace or a king... |
Isn't it "win small or lose huge" situation? Hit A or K, UTG bets, you raise and he mucks his QQ/TT. Or UTG bets, you raise, he RE-raises and you lose to set/overpair...
Or maybe I'm nit too...
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Fnord
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BTW: he was multi-tabling and I had no read on his post-flop tendencies (which making playing top pair less desirable.)
I figure his range is AA-TT/AK maybe AQ/AJs
2 weeks ago I would have at least insta-called.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
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Only two hands have you dominated, AA and KK. With one of each in your hand it makes it less likely that he has either. My biggest issue though is that you have position. Being that he is tight as you say he is and that you have him on such a narrow range of hands it should be relatively easy to know where you stand based on his actions after the flop.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Only two hands have you dominated, AA and KK. With one of each in your hand it makes it less likely that he has either.
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I probably marginally am doing well pre-flop. The problem I have here is how well am I doing when the rest of the money goes into the pot. Domination is all good and stuff, but is less important when the money goes in post-flop.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
My biggest issue though is that you have position. Being that he is tight as you say he is and that you have him on such a narrow range of hands it should be relatively easy to know where you stand based on his actions after the flop.
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Fair enough.
I re-raise pre-flop and he calls, where am I at? A good player often just calls here with AA/KK if they have any respect for the other player.
I call, we see a flop and I'm going to draw an auto-bet of 1/2 to full pot without a clue what that means to him. Raising TPTK vs his range is kind of silly because there is a good chance he's on 2-3 outs and might fire a second barrel and even third barrel (again a read here would be GREAT.)
I was running good, I was robbing the player between us blind and just didn't see a whole lot of reasons to gamble here. I would love for someone to convince me otherwise. I don't like folding money away, but that's just my silly LHE sort of thinking...
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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at worst he has AA then you'll know youre screwed. At second worst he has KK andyou dont see and ace. Anything worse that that QQ/JJ id like to see a flop. He could even have AK/AQ in which case im seeing a flop again.
FOr me there are too many reason TO see a flop at least.
But i can understand the fold, its just very tight
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
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AKs is worth a flop at least, sir. Add to the fact that you have position and I really hate this fold.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
AKs is worth a flop at least, sir. Add to the fact that you have position and I really hate this fold.
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I wasn't going to chime in on this thread until I read this, but hero's position here is actually very poor. (Assuming 10 handed table), there are still 7 people to act preflop. Hero has position on the pre flop raiser post flop but everyone else (outside of the blinds) has position on him, and he is also sandwiched between the PFRer and everyone that came in behind him. Generally UTG bets the flop here, and hero is stuck between him and everyone else behind him. With a hand like TPTK, this can be a very bad situation.
Without going into the hand in detail, I think I can find a call here. I don't like a reraise here in this position with a tight player raising UTG. I wouldn't argue against a fold here.
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aislephive
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
AKs is worth a flop at least, sir. Add to the fact that you have position and I really hate this fold.
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I wasn't going to chime in on this thread until I read this, but hero's position here is actually very poor. (Assuming 10 handed table), there are still 7 people to act preflop. Hero has position on the pre flop raiser post flop but everyone else (outside of the blinds) has position on him, and he is also sandwiched between the PFRer and everyone that came in behind him. Generally UTG bets the flop here, and hero is stuck between him and everyone else behind him. With a hand like TPTK, this can be a very bad situation.
Without going into the hand in detail, I think I can find a call here. I don't like a reraise here in this position with a tight player raising UTG. I wouldn't argue against a fold here. |
You're right, there are still several players yet left to act, which is probably why I make a raise in this situation. Tight players raise AQ+/TT+ from UTG as well, so I don't think that labeling somebody a tight players means that they ONLY have aces or kings when they enter a pot. Folding AKs in this spot is just not a good play. You have arguably the third or fourth best hand in holdem.
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Werddown
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
thats tight even id like to see a flop there!
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Besides a broadway or flush draw kinda thing, what flop are you really liking here enough to go 100bb with this guy? |
What do you mean by "Go 100BB with this guy" ?
I thought he just raised 4x?
Doesnt seem like that makes him committed on 100NL table if he has $100.
Sorry I'm newb!
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
What do you mean by "Go 100BB with this guy" ?
I thought he just raised 4x?
Doesnt seem like that makes him committed on 100NL table if he has $100.
Sorry I'm newb!
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I always think several streets ahead.
If we consider the range of possible hand values as a number between 0 and 1, then NLHE is a game where you really want to be holding the 0 or the 1. Having 0.75 is what gets you in trouble.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
What do you mean by "Go 100BB with this guy" ?
I thought he just raised 4x?
Doesnt seem like that makes him committed on 100NL table if he has $100.
Sorry I'm newb!
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I always think several streets ahead.
If we consider the range of possible hand values as a number between 0 and 1, then NLHE is a game where you really want to be holding the 0 or the 1. Having 0.75 is what gets you in trouble. |
Quoted for truth
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
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Originally Posted by aislephive
AKs is worth a flop at least, sir. Add to the fact that you have position and I really hate this fold.
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I wasn't going to chime in on this thread until I read this, but hero's position here is actually very poor. (Assuming 10 handed table), there are still 7 people to act preflop. Hero has position on the pre flop raiser post flop but everyone else (outside of the blinds) has position on him, and he is also sandwiched between the PFRer and everyone that came in behind him. Generally UTG bets the flop here, and hero is stuck between him and everyone else behind him. With a hand like TPTK, this can be a very bad situation.
Without going into the hand in detail, I think I can find a call here. I don't like a reraise here in this position with a tight player raising UTG. I wouldn't argue against a fold here. |
You're right, there are still several players yet left to act, which is probably why I make a raise in this situation. Tight players raise AQ+/TT+ from UTG as well, so I don't think that labeling somebody a tight players means that they ONLY have aces or kings when they enter a pot. Folding AKs in this spot is just not a good play. You have arguably the third or fourth best hand in holdem. |
I never said, or even implied, that since a tight player is raising UTG means that they have KK/AA. On a sidenote, it is certainly more likely then normal. What I meant is that there aren't many hands that AK beats that a tight player would be raising UTG. Let's assume you are correct and villain would be raising AQ+/TT+. Based on personal experience, if you reraise here and everybody behind you folds, UTG probably folds AQ, folds/calls with AK, calls with TT-QQ, and comes over the top with KK-AA. Obiously all players play different but this is at least reasonable. At the very least, it serves my point.
Does TT-QQ pay you off when an A or K flops?
Basically, you are chasing away the hands that could pay you off, and putting yourself into a win small/lose huge situation. In a tournament situation I would be much more inclined to reraise and isolate here, but AKs is a much stronger hand with shorter stacks on agressive tourney tables.
I know Fnord has drilled this point in many of his posts, but there aren't many situations in a deep stacked cash game where you want play for stacks with AK.
JMO.. I think a reraise here is the worst play. Say somebody opened for a raise in the CO and I held AKs OTB.. that is a situation where I'd be much more inclined to reraise and isolate.
I think you need a little more respect for position.. how your opponents react to it, how it affects what hands they are willing to play, and how it affects you the rest of the hand.
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Vrax
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Full House
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If tight nit raised 5BB UTG, I'd rather call him with 79 suited or even 74 offsuit than AKs, cause there is a chance my ace or king is dead. Either monster or total trash, medium is no g00t.
If it was late position it's easy call for me. Because it's easier to find out what does he have according to his flop check/bet, and find if TPTK is good, OR have nut flush draw (if flops) in position. From UTG+2 and other players behind me I would either re-raise for isolation and see his reaction to this (if he goes over the top then its 100% muck) or just muck it without reraising if he is super total tightass.
But I'd feel sad about mucking it. It's AK, it's s00ted and hearts! Awwwww.....
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Lukie
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If somebody raises you'd rather call with 74o then AKs?
I understand your point, but let's be realistic...
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Vrax
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Full House
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74 off ? Ok LOL I exaggerated, it hits too rarely and stacks are too shallow. Also no info about the player. Is he easy to being pushed off the hand?(then any 2 cards can be +EV)? Or he isn't but he will pay me off if I hit? That info MUST be taken into account before calling raise with substandard weird hand.
But 22 would be fine, it works wonders against nits. Especially if they even cant lay down AK unimproved. But I play on $25 and $50, $100 is probably different.
If I see raise and have AK UTG+2 then it's "decisions decisions"...
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Silly String
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If we consider the range of possible hand values as a number between 0 and 1, then NLHE is a game where you really want to be holding the 0 or the 1. Having 0.75 is what gets you in trouble.
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Spoken like a true set hunter . . . although I know that is the anti-Fnord.
I understand your fold. That being said, at my level(25NL), this is still a profitable call. I think if you assume that range of hands, it is a win a little or lose a little situation. The only hands you lose alot against are AA& KK, but you are already prepared to drop to those hands with a lot of resistance. i.e. we are not playing for stacks here.
I don't re-raise with this read and UTG+2 position. I think you have a good drawing hand and and do not want to run an isolation play. The -EV that Fnord is contending this hand provides will only be exagerated if you discourage other callers. I think the hand is made +EV at the 25NL level by the wider range of openers, lower post-flop quality of tight players, and additional callers $. At 100 NL this fold may be correct. I would also fold this to a known set-hunter.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Zidane18
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 193
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tight or not i am reraising 3 times his bet
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I was running good, I was robbing the player between us blind and just didn't see a whole lot of reasons to gamble here.
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I think this is the key to the whole situation. Personally, I'm not disciplined enough to lay down AK preflop here, but I see your point exactly. Don't butt heads with the shark unless you have the goods, when there's a steady diet of fish around you.
The fact is the nutpeddler doesn't deserve action from second bests. He hasn't earned it. Just avoid him until you have him dominated.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
AKs is worth a flop at least, sir. Add to the fact that you have position and I really hate this fold.
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I wasn't going to chime in on this thread until I read this, but hero's position here is actually very poor. (Assuming 10 handed table), there are still 7 people to act preflop. Hero has position on the pre flop raiser post flop but everyone else (outside of the blinds) has position on him, and he is also sandwiched between the PFRer and everyone that came in behind him. Generally UTG bets the flop here, and hero is stuck between him and everyone else behind him. With a hand like TPTK, this can be a very bad situation.
Without going into the hand in detail, I think I can find a call here. I don't like a reraise here in this position with a tight player raising UTG. I wouldn't argue against a fold here. |
You're right, there are still several players yet left to act, which is probably why I make a raise in this situation. Tight players raise AQ+/TT+ from UTG as well, so I don't think that labeling somebody a tight players means that they ONLY have aces or kings when they enter a pot. Folding AKs in this spot is just not a good play. You have arguably the third or fourth best hand in holdem. |
I never said, or even implied, that since a tight player is raising UTG means that they have KK/AA. On a sidenote, it is certainly more likely then normal. What I meant is that there aren't many hands that AK beats that a tight player would be raising UTG. Let's assume you are correct and villain would be raising AQ+/TT+. Based on personal experience, if you reraise here and everybody behind you folds, UTG probably folds AQ, folds/calls with AK, calls with TT-QQ, and comes over the top with KK-AA. Obiously all players play different but this is at least reasonable. At the very least, it serves my point.
Does TT-QQ pay you off when an A or K flops?
Basically, you are chasing away the hands that could pay you off, and putting yourself into a win small/lose huge situation. In a tournament situation I would be much more inclined to reraise and isolate here, but AKs is a much stronger hand with shorter stacks on agressive tourney tables.
I know Fnord has drilled this point in many of his posts, but there aren't many situations in a deep stacked cash game where you want play for stacks with AK.
JMO.. I think a reraise here is the worst play. Say somebody opened for a raise in the CO and I held AKs OTB.. that is a situation where I'd be much more inclined to reraise and isolate.
I think you need a little more respect for position.. how your opponents react to it, how it affects what hands they are willing to play, and how it affects you the rest of the hand. |
AK is a hand that gets its value from fold equity. If you just make this call let's assume that the rest of the table folds (we'll ignore whether or not this is a realistic expectation). Let's say the flop comes with all low cards, and now you fold when he bets his likely overpair. If the flop comes with an ace or king, he'll likely just back off and you won't make much more money off the hand. But if you reraise here it's very likely that you can isolate against the raiser in position and you have also taken control of the betting. He'll probably elect to call with 99-QQ or worse and will reraise with KK and AA. If he just makes the call you can win the pot several different ways. If an ace or king flops you most likely are ahead, and even if the flop comes all rags you can steal the pot by representing a big pair. You get a lot more value out of AK by reraising in this spot than you do from just smooth calling.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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Quote:
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Spoken like a true set hunter . . . although I know that is the anti-Fnord
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Ok ill speak ( iwonder if its fnord ive been playing at checknraise?)
From what i see we either fold this or reraise.
First that should help with the problem of position. Im suggest only monsters and maybe pps come in behind us in this pot (holding a pp in better position i would be in here!) When action comes back to utg he should then define his hand to us. if he pushes i think we can fold it having lost a small amount compared to what we might have. If he calls i think our ace is good and possibly the king. Post flop we can rep a big pp too unless we get resistance from utg.
Rondavu picked up on not enough discipline to fold AK prefl. My normal play is to call behind and hopefully trap AQ with AK rather than reraise. I guess i accept this is a situation where that would have to be different.
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