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Micro2Macro

10-26-2009, 06:59 AM Post subject: Illustration

#1 (permalink)

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Call this my belated 2k post, as well as my >10k in profit/give back to the place I came from (BC) post. /brag.

Let's say villain checks the river to us. His range is XXY. He will only call a river shove if he has Y. You shove for pot and you have a +EV bluff. Now let's say his range is still XXY, but he snaps off your shove with everything, that is he calls X, X, and Y - well its obvious we can't bluff, even if we KNOW X is like 2nd or 3rd pair. So sometimes a player will check their entire range on the river, and when we're left with a PSB all we have to do is determine whether we're value betting or bluffing given what we anticipate his calling range to be.

But you can't force someone to fold. Your opponents will play their range however they please. Your job is to observe and figure out how they are playing it - and ADJUST.

Here's a thought: 'Player A' can show up with the exact same set of hands as 'Player B' on a given river. Player A may never pay you off, Player B may be impossible to bluff.

Okay I left you with some simple advice, I'll shut up till I'm at 3k posts now. If anyone sees an error in my statements holla itt.

(I dunno why I put 2 X's in the example but I'm basically mindboggled right now with all the grinding I've done lately).

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro

10-27-2009, 09:17 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I gaurantee at least 1/2 the grinders in the BC aren't even thinking at all about villains range when they play. The point of this post was to push you in the right direction and start THINKING instead of just clicking.

Instead of rambling on about random bs I could have just said 'THINK while you play' and left it at that. Despite reading this, I doubt most of you will even bother to try this thing called thinking out at the tables. Those that do typically aren't stuck in the BC for very long.

So get out there and prove me wrong.

Sasquach991

10-27-2009, 09:56 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Rat Cheer

Posts: 1,012

Lemme think about it.

As an addendum to your 2k post I would like to add something.

I watched m2m play over teamviewer and skype a few weeks back. I made some notes and posted them in my OP. I thought many would benefit from seeing these as many don't visit the OPs.

Watched m2m play for a while yesterday on teamviewer and skype.
A few things I noticed:

1. He reviews winning hands probably more than losing hands.
2. He rarely goes to showdown and loses.
3. He rarely just calls.
4. He ALWAYS puts villian on a range.
5. He shrugs it off when he loses.
6. He opens pokerstove occasionally
7. He adjusts his play based on how the table and individual players are playing (tightens up when his image gets loose and visa versa)
8. He makes lots of notes
9. He thinks everything through instead of just pushing buttons
10. He plans his hands

There were a few more but they weren't important.

Within one week after watching m2m play, my BR was up 27 BIs at 10NL. Coulda been a massive heater but I think the majority was learning to do the above actions.

"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.

kiwiMark

10-28-2009, 12:19 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: Nu Zuland bru

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I think the reason this isn't getting any love is because it sounds so simple, people read it, think "Yeah I understand that" and then completely fail to apply it to their game. It's that last part that's hard, and takes time to pound into yourself, imo.

Micro2Macro

10-28-2009, 01:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

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<m2mgrind> cliff notes: THINK AND ADJUST

Micro2Macro

10-28-2009, 01:15 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwiMark

I think you hit it dead on.

Dash

10-28-2009, 02:40 AM

#7 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 36

I'm trying to get a handle on applying ranges to villain and making it a habit. I'm sure this will help more as the level of play gets better at higher stakes. At micro stakes I gotta say I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

My thinking when facing aggression goes like this:

1. What kind of hand would I have to bet like that?
2. Is this villain's range tighter or looser than mine?
3. Is his 3-betting range ahead of my hand?
4. Will I have position if I call/raise and what are my outs?
5. Oh, he had J7o. Riiiiiiight, this is 2NL.

I haven't grasped the concepts of equity/fold equity, ICM yet.

acoss3006

10-28-2009, 03:54 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash

Know exactly what you mean. I try to give villian a reasonably sane range until I see him showing up with retarded hands (like J7o!). I then take a note and from then on in add a junk component to his range. If we know villian has some junk in his range and we include it accordingly, it just increases our own equity against villians range in every hand.

al yell

10-28-2009, 06:55 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 515

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash

I'm trying to get a handle on applying ranges....At micro stakes I gotta say I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

Dash, not trying to single you out. I just think that there may be this misconception that assigning ranges is only effective or important versus other thinking players which, incidentally, are more often than not found at higher stakes. Yes you will run into several donks playing ATC at the micros, but what's the problem? Once you've spotted them that information becomes invaluable as you now can deduce an optimal strategy vs. them - not to mention they are not likely to counter-adjust accordingly. Once that note has been taken on Villain (mental or otherwise) you've already begun assigning that player a range. "Oh man, this guy again.. he could have anything!" It's not extremely helpful but it's a start.

Side note: Generally you're going experience more variance against opponents that are just clicking buttons + playing random trash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash

My thinking when facing aggression goes like this:

1. What kind of hand would Ihave to bet like that?
2. Is this villain's range tighter or looser than mine?
3. Is his 3-betting range ahead of my hand?
4. Will I have position if I call/raise and what are my outs?
5. Oh, he had J7o. Riiiiiiight, this is 2NL.

There are some important questions I was taught to ask myself during a hand which touches a bit on what you've laid out above and is in direct correlation with assigning ranges. Here's an example:

Before betting ask yourself...
What worse hands will call and what better hands will fold?

Then decide, given what you know of your opponent and the situation (positions, etc.) what hands Villain could have that fall under those criteria. At later stages, vs other hand readers, start thinking about what hands you could also have. It's obv not all encompassing but i hope it was helpful in some way.

When Push Comes To Shove

Dash

10-28-2009, 10:43 PM

#10 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash

I'm trying to get a handle on applying ranges....At micro stakes I gotta say I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash

There are some important questions I was taught to ask myself during a hand which touches a bit on what you've laid out above and is in direct correlation with assigning ranges. Here's an example:

Before betting as yourself...
What worse hands will call and what better hands will fold?

Then decide, given what you know of your opponent and the situation (positions, etc.) what hands Villain could have that fall under those criteria. At later stages, vs other hand readers, start thinking about what hands you could also have. It's obv not all encompassing but i hope it was helpful in some way.

Not at all. Good advice.

That's a good way of thinking when applying ranges to eediots. I will take this on board.

bjsaust

10-28-2009, 11:49 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Very good post M2M.

One important lesson people should take away from this: Pay attention to hands you're not involved with, and take notes on peoples showdowns.

Knowing which villains can fold and which cant is very important, and you just wont play enough hands with enough people yourself to get this information as timely as you'd like.

Just playing to improve.

nonofyobiz

10-28-2009, 11:55 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Location: Calgary

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I'm having trouble assigning ranges in hands. Of course I think about what the villain most likely has in the current situation and what he may think i have. But i don't do it in a step by step fashion listing out ALL the possibilities. I find it really hard to think about it all and I don't have time during the hand to list them all in my head... maybe i just don't have the concentration most times?? Maybe it just takes more practice and you think about it more automatically?

I was playing 8-10 tables for 2NL and now play 4 tables at 5NL.....I guess i have to drop down to 2???
I think if i play just one or two tables my mind will wonder too much and i'll end up playing stupid or way too loose.

How did other guys start out assigning ranges???

Obv the sooner you learn it the better, but would it be a disaster if I moved up to 10NL before i was pretty decent at assign villain ranges?? Basically, even if I beat 5NL and work my way up to the roll for 10NL, should i stay at 5NL to practice this and get better first?

al yell

10-29-2009, 04:31 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 515

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonofyobiz

I'm having trouble assigning ranges in hands.... But i don't do it in a step by step fashion listing out ALL the possibilities. I find it really hard to think about it all and I don't have time during the hand to list them all in my head....How did other guys start out assigning ranges???

A more practical approach than thinking through every possibility is grouping hand 'types' together. For instance, on a J72 board the following hands are all more or less the same as Top Pair (QQ+, JT+). Sets are (JJ,77,22). Draws (89, T9, QT, etc.). You get the idea. Try coming up with ways to think about it that works best for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonofyobiz

Maybe it just takes more practice and you think about it more automatically?

This

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonofyobiz

Obv the sooner you learn it the better, but would it be a disaster if I moved up to 10NL before i was pretty decent at assign villain ranges??

It's a question of confidence plus threshold for risk, one that only you can answer. I try to find a balance between applying new skills and advancing. When in doubt just adhere to a strict BR management. The money will tell you where to go.

When Push Comes To Shove

TonyB73

10-29-2009, 09:20 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 414

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonofyobiz

I was playing 8-10 tables for 2NL and now play 4 tables at 5NL.....I guess i have to drop down to 2???
I think if i play just one or two tables my mind will wonder too much and i'll end up playing stupid or way too loose.

Then play three. The right number is different for different players; whats important is that you need to be not only playing your own hands, but watching all the hands you're not involved in to see what the other players do. If you fold preflop but there are two players HU after the flop, practice by putting them both on ranges.

Every showdown you see whether you're involved or not gives you information, so if you're missing them you need to cut down tables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonofyobiz

Obv the sooner you learn it the better, but would it be a disaster if I moved up to 10NL before i was pretty decent at assign villain ranges?? Basically, even if I beat 5NL and work my way up to the roll for 10NL, should i stay at 5NL to practice this and get better first?

Definitely the more practice you get sooner, the better. However, you can beat 10NL and probably even 25NL without being a good hand reader, so if you have the BR and are winning I think you should move up to those levels even if you are not yet completely comfortable with your hand reading skills.

At 50NL and above you will get pwned - don't go near those tables until you are assigning ranges automatically.

Robb

10-30-2009, 04:59 AM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

@ some of the newer guys asking about how to learn to assign ranges, here's a post about using HEM or PT3 to start learning it:

Practicing Ranges

@m2m vnh sir

The more experience I get the more convinced I am of this fact of poker:

Wanna increase your earn at the micros? Play fewer tables.

Why? 'Cuz you can think, plan and adjust better (instead of auto-piloting). And like m2m says, skillful thinking, planning and adjusting lead to big poker profits.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Micro2Macro

10-31-2009, 07:36 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

@m2m vnh sir

Quote:

The more experience I get the more convinced I am of this fact of poker:

Wanna increase your earn at the micros? Play fewer tables.

Why? 'Cuz you can think, plan and adjust better (instead of auto-piloting). And like m2m says, skillful thinking, planning and adjusting lead to big poker profits.

agree 100% @ bold. we could also look at it as a way of just increasing our future profit as well, since it will allow us to get better, move up in stakes etc.

holdenthefuries

11-02-2009, 10:04 PM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 21

"Know exactly what you mean. I try to give villian a reasonably sane range until I see him showing up with retarded hands (like J7o!)"

After playing a bunch of heads-up, the reason for playing J7o should be pretty clear. Think about what qualities a hand like this has that could be good... (Jack high kicker, potential to make a straight, two pair spiking) and you will see that it is often very beatable... Obviously you aren't probably playing J7o... but J6s is playable, as is J5s. Know the qualities in general that your opponent is playing, adjust and exploit.

It is simply adjusting, remember... when making your ranges, very often people are playing a game that is atypical (situational... psychological, individual essentially). Watch for people with a lot of Jxs to have a very speculative and "high card" sort of game. J7o is sort of like K9o and K10o. You are really happy when your opponent plays it, but it still wins sometimes. Play for stacks with your good hands against these players in or out of position.

acoss3006

11-02-2009, 10:09 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdenthefuries

playing J7o... but J6s is playable, as is J5s.

I think theyre all junk.

nonofyobiz

11-02-2009, 10:33 PM

#19 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2009

Location: Calgary

Posts: 158

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyB73

Yes i Def do not do this. I should just stop worrying about making money and concentrate on improving this way.

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