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salsa4ever
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04-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Post subject: I think my biggest leak: 4th street play
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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200NL
I'm up about 3 buyins. Villain's stack is $200; just sat down and no reads
I pick up AQ in MP with a limper; I raise it to 8, button calls, BB calls and limper calls. Flop comes A105 2 clubs. I have no clubs
Pot is about $32; it's checked to me and I bet $25 and all except for BB fold. BB calls.
Pot is now $82
Turn comes a Q giving me 2 pair. BB checks. What is your move?
Conceptually I know about pot control. But I don't know how to apply it. here my opponent could be on a club draw (in my game, people will call a 3/4 pot with a club draw). He could be on a pair + gutshot like AK or AQ. Could conceivably have A10 or Q10 for 2 pair or just Ace-low for a one pair. He could have a set. QQ, TT and 55 are all consistent with his preflop and flop play.
Question 1: Villain has $160 behind him and I have heaps. Do you check or bet in this situation, and if so how much?
Question 2: Assume I bet. half pot $40. Villain min raises. Obviously calling commits me to call anything on the river is probably the same as pushing. So do we fold or let it ride?
Question 3: Assume I check. River is a brick deuce. Do I call an all-in/pot size?
Question 4: Assume I check. River is a club J. How much am I willing to call now? What if it's a club deuce. How much will I call? In both cases I would bet about $50 if checked to and would probably feel compelled to call if villain pushed.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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I don't think you can be too afraid here. I think I bet 60ish and go from there. He pushes I can't see folding. I'm not someone who can't lay down top two, but to not continue the hand would be incredibly weak UNLESS you had a good read. I AJ in his range? AT? AK? (or would he have reraised AK). You can't just think of what might beat you. Yes if it's in the range consider it as much as you consider hands you beat in the range. But don't only think "What is in his range that can beat me?"
And if you really don't want to play a big pot then I'd rather check it than make an awkward "What do I do if..." bet.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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If opp cold called with gutshot and flush outs then hes horrible imo and Should be raising your cont bet. on the flop with a number of outs. If he has a set then you three bet as you should here telling opp hes playing for stacks. If he pushes i cant see the odds off the top of my head but i think you have to call. If you improve to top two here its difficult to fold as the board hold lots of fold quity for draws.
Im of the opinion checking that turn is gona put you to a lot more difficult river decisions than betting it will. Gotta bet and kill odds while being aware of how much you really want to call if the danger cards appear
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Bet the turn. Value bet blank river. If he is calling station and goes to showdown with wide range, bet for value even 3rd club, but not too much, just to get a call from lower 2pair or weak ace.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Checking with two pair on the turn is out of the question, no sense in waiting for the nuts, you have a good hand and are ahead the vast majority of the time. Bet it for value but knocking off draws.
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Fnord
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04-11-2006, 06:13 PM
Post subject: Re: I think my biggest leak: 4th street play
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#6 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
(in my game, people will call a 3/4 pot with a club draw)
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If people will c-bet any 2 cards, then why is calling a c-bet with lots of money behind on a flush draw so terrible?
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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Note: Unless you left out some kind of special read, I'm trying to get all of my money in on this hand, he is only ahead of you w/ a set or KJ right now).
1. Bet pot (with the intention that you are committed to this hand)
2. Let it ride.
3. Push all in no matter what (if he called your pot sized bet there is simply too much in the pot to get out and you did your duty by making him pay too much for his flush).
4. IF you check, then first ask yourself why you checked. I'm hoping it was to control the pot size and see what the final texture is. Well now you know, there is a flush out there and you might have given him a free card. I'd pick an amount, probably about 1/2 the pot, that I'm willing to call. I wouldn't throw out a blocking bet here, because you already showed weakness on the turn, so its not like checking again looks weird.
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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fnord: I didn't say calling with a flush draw was inherently bad. I probably raise or lead if OOP.
thanks for the replies guys.
As it happened I bet $60, and villain pushed.
I called and he showed TT for the set.
Will the play be any different if the turn is a brick 2 rather than the queen to give me 2 pair?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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yes ,you dont get all in on top pair.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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yea, I could find a fold, although I'd most likely pay it off with top 2.
If the flop had no clubs, it'd be easier to fold, but some people just play crazy with flush draws and makes it a bit easier to call here.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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I never find a fold on that board with top two against an unknown.
Obviously we could save a lot of money by being able to get away from these hands...but how much value do we lose when we're up against another two pair or a donk or a draw? These take a stellar read, IMO.
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