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I think I'm dominated. When do I bail?

  
 
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IslandAK
Old 08-08-2006, 09:31 PM     Post subject: I think I'm dominated. When do I bail? #1 (permalink)  

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Do I lay this down at any point?
I was playing pretty aggressively on this table. But I think the reraise means something. I don't think I've seen this guy reraise. I've been playing 20 minutes or so.

When he reraises the flop do I give him credit for AK? Let it go on the turn for a reraise? Then on the river do I give it up to KK?

I'm trying not to get pushed off when I make the hand I'm looking for, but I think this was a terrible hand. I feel I should have let go on the turn, and 100% on the river. I've seen so many players bet AJ like this, except they are calling preflop raises, not really reraising.

Sorry, I read the fine print, Pacific/Hand grabber is not supported but the hand converter. Yet?

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 37425205 *****
$0.12/$0.25 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 08 08 00:50:57 2006
Table Sterkens (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: sparman9 ( $22.43 )
Seat 5: AlinB ( $20.5 )
Seat 6: Island3r ( $30.67 )
Seat 7: flifli ( $52.95 )
Seat 8: spam462 ( $6.85 )
Seat 9: TAXEDU ( $23.25 )
TAXEDU posts small blind [$0.12].
sparman9 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Island3r [ Qc As ]
AlinB calls [$0.25].
Island3r raises [$1].
flifli raises [$1.75].
spam462 folds.
TAXEDU folds.
sparman9 folds.
AlinB folds.
Island3r calls [$0.75]. (Pot $4.12)
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 9s, Ah ]
Island3r bets [$3.25].
flifli raises [$6.5].
Island3r calls [$3.25]. (Pot $17.12)
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
Island3r checks.
flifli bets [$7.13].
Island3r calls [$7.13]. (Pot $31.38)
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
Island3r checks.
flifli bets [$8.86].
Island3r calls [$8.86].
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johnnyBuz
Old 08-08-2006, 10:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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flifli just schooled you on this hand. you show weakness on every single street and he sniffs it out easily and takes down the pot with AK or better.

the min-raise preflop would be your first cue, and after being raised on the flop, i think you shut it down and save yourself the additional $20 instead of just passively check/calling him down.
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Fnord
Old 08-08-2006, 10:31 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I don't like the flop bet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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johnnyBuz
Old 08-08-2006, 10:36 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't like the flop bet.
what's wrong with the lead out bet on the flop? is it because it's almost 1/1 ratio of the pot, killing his chances at controlling the pot for the rest of the hand, or would you be looking to check-raise to gain some information on villain's hand strength and check/folding if you do not improve?
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Halv
Old 08-08-2006, 10:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Flop is essentially dry, I think we can check call and have a much smaller pot to worry about on later streets with a non-premium holding.

(Allthough I myself in all my donkness probably lead too, so please elaborate, Fnord. PS, what happened to you and me cybering last night? I had my most expensive boxers on and all )

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Cocco_Bill
Old 08-08-2006, 10:44 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't like the flop bet.
what's wrong with the lead out bet on the flop? is it because it's almost 1/1 ratio of the pot, killing his chances at controlling the pot for the rest of the hand, or would you be looking to check-raise to gain some information on villain's hand strength and check/folding if you do not improve?
He is either way ahead or way behind here. Check calling gets the most value ut of KK QQ JJ, betting builds up a nice pot for all the hands that beat you.
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Fnord
Old 08-08-2006, 10:53 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Betting $1 on the flop into this guy would be spiffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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johnnyBuz
Old 08-08-2006, 10:55 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't like the flop bet.
what's wrong with the lead out bet on the flop? is it because it's almost 1/1 ratio of the pot, killing his chances at controlling the pot for the rest of the hand, or would you be looking to check-raise to gain some information on villain's hand strength and check/folding if you do not improve?
He is either way ahead or way behind here. Check calling gets the most value ut of KK QQ JJ, betting builds up a nice pot for all the hands that beat you.
So is check-raising never an option with a hand like AQ here then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Betting $1 on the flop into this guy would be spiffy.
That seems worse then check-calling. Why 1/3 pot bet? It's just gonna get raised hard.

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Fnord
Old 08-08-2006, 10:56 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
So is check-raising never an option with a hand like AQ here then?
What are you trying to accomplish?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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johnnyBuz
Old 08-08-2006, 10:58 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
So is check-raising never an option with a hand like AQ here then?
What are you trying to accomplish?
Push a hand like 88-KK off who will c-bet and take it down on the flop while still getting a bet out of him. If he sticks around, check/fold or check/call the turn and river based on your read.

Reasonable or bad play?
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andy-akb
Old 08-08-2006, 11:23 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
So is check-raising never an option with a hand like AQ here then?
What are you trying to accomplish?
Push a hand like 88-KK off who will c-bet and take it down on the flop while still getting a bet out of him. If he sticks around, check/fold or check/call the turn and river based on your read.

Reasonable or bad play?
You dont want to push a worse hand off that is only drawing to two outs, on a board like this Im not worried about him drawing out on me if he has a better hand and a c/c is fine and will get more value out of worse hands. On a more draw heavy board Id be more likely to c/r here [or lead depending on my opponent], but here we should be fine to c/c.

As played Im probably folding to the flop raise without any other reads.
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Rockymv
Old 08-09-2006, 06:12 AM #12 (permalink)  
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A more passive line on the flop is appropriate here because you're way ahead of his PF range, the board is bone dry, and betting the flop is only going get action from the hands that have you crushed.

I've got that part down, but my question is what you do after a c/c on the flop. c/f the turn? Can we expect him to fire another barrel with KK here? Reads or stats would be enormously helpful.

As played, I can't see us continuing past the flop.
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IslandAK
Old 08-09-2006, 11:52 AM #13 (permalink)  

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IslandAK
Stats I had to dig out of PT. vp$ip 43.56 pfr 6.93.
*6.93 pfr that equals what to reraise, AA/KK?
Reads: Nothing exceptional. We're at a short table, I'm betting at a lot of flops. He's seems to be playing a little looser preflop, but still folding the flops he misses.

Thanks you guys. You helped me add something to my poker brain and playbook.

Any other comments more than welcome.
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biondino
Old 08-09-2006, 01:09 PM #14 (permalink)  
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The min-re-raise pre-flop at 25NL is usually AK, in my experience, though with players who have a PFR of say 10%+ it could be TT+ or AJ+ (there are very few players who are strong enough to re-raise with worse hands - the only ones that do will be maniacs with 65/35 type stats and you'll easily be able to sniff them out).

The minraise on the flop means he has at least top pair, which figures. KK doesn't min-raise here, ever. So, does he have AA, AK, AQ or worse? I really struggle to see how he has AQ or worse more than maybe 20% of the time, especially with PFR stats of 7%. I have to say this is about the most obvious an AK hand has been, ever.
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Rondavu
Old 08-09-2006, 01:12 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymv
my question is what you do after a c/c on the flop. c/f the turn? Can we expect him to fire another barrel with KK here?
Someone once told me that unless they're hungry or crazy, wild animals are usually more afraid of you, than you are of them.

Look at the flop my friend. It's [ 6c, 9s, Ah ].

If you check call that flop, does the opponent feel you're drawing? No he doesn't. In fact he's putting you on exactly a pair of aces x kicker. Often if an opponent fires the second strong barrell here, you can safely lay it down given the preflop action. If the opponent is capable of multiple weak barrells, you'll figure it out soon enough. He's not out of line yet though is he?

What do you think he has?
What do you think he thinks you have?
What do you think he thinks you think he has?

IMO, the opponent has exactly AK.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Rockymv
Old 08-09-2006, 03:47 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
The min-re-raise pre-flop at 25NL is usually AK
In addition to AK, I've seen it a lot with mid-pairs.
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Miffed22001
Old 08-09-2006, 04:48 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 check/call, lead fold to a raise.

To be pretty honest when you get reraised at these stakes and someone leads an Axx flop behind you, just dump AQ imo. If they dont like the flop theyll check anyway.
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Fnord
Old 08-09-2006, 05:00 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymv
Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
The min-re-raise pre-flop at 25NL is usually AK
In addition to AK, I've seen it a lot with mid-pairs.
At the 100nl level I see this play with KQ/TTish hands as well. They test the field for a hand that has them destroyed, take initiative and discourage people from playing back at them. Hence, I'll play-back light if this is what I think they're up to...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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