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I Think i need to work on my postflop play... 10NL

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Redstripe

07-12-2008, 07:36 AM Post subject: I Think i need to work on my postflop play... 10NL

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Warwick, RI

Posts: 8

Ive been grinding it out at 10NL for the past week or so, just started back up after not playing for awhile. Things were going nice and slowly in the positive direction until tonight where i couldnt get much going, which i know is bound to happen but i cant help but think im just not playing good postflop. Im gonna throw in a batch of HHs from tonight plz analyze and let me know how bad i played them

FullTiltPoker Game #7186339176: Table Abercorn - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:06:25 ET - 2008/07/12
Seat 1: ijumpedthborder ($4.35)
Seat 2: sPenT112 ($5.30)
Seat 3: J03Mannix ($10.15)
Seat 4: serrie ($16.15)
Seat 5: Lapys ($1.80)
Seat 6: nickm690 ($10.85)
Seat 7: madhatter20 ($5.35)
Seat 8: Scarrface187 ($9.10)
Seat 9: shortstack1313 ($7.70)
madhatter20 posts the small blind of $0.05
Scarrface187 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nickm690 [Tc Kc]
shortstack1313 folds
ijumpedthborder folds
sPenT112 folds
J03Mannix folds
serrie has 15 seconds left to act
serrie raises to $0.35
Lapys folds
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 calls $0.35
madhatter20 folds
Scarrface187 folds
*** FLOP *** [7c Kd Jc]
serrie bets $0.85
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 raises to $2
serrie has 15 seconds left to act
serrie calls $1.15
*** TURN *** [7c Kd Jc] [Jd]
ijumpedthborder has been disconnected
serrie checks
ijumpedthborder has reconnected
nickm690 bets $3
serrie calls $3
*** RIVER *** [7c Kd Jc Jd] [5h]
serrie bets $10.80, and is all in
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 is sitting out
nickm690 has timed out
nickm690 folds
Uncalled bet of $10.80 returned to serrie
serrie mucks
serrie wins the pot ($9.80)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.85 | Rake $1.05
Board: [7c Kd Jc Jd 5h]
Seat 1: ijumpedthborder didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: sPenT112 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: J03Mannix didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: serrie collected ($9.80), mucked
Seat 5: Lapys didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: nickm690 (button) folded on the River
Seat 7: madhatter20 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Scarrface187 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: shortstack1313 didn't bet (folded)

I wouldnt normally make this call with anybody but this guy had been raising from late position alot so i figured id try it out, he seemed like a decent TAG player.

FullTiltPoker Game #7186570896: Table Abercorn - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:30:55 ET - 2008/07/12
Seat 1: tewreal ($10)
Seat 2: fanifac ($9.80)
Seat 3: J03Mannix ($10.60)
Seat 4: serrie ($18.55)
Seat 5: Lapys ($2.15)
Seat 6: nickm690 ($7.60)
Seat 7: smertskosoj ($1.80)
Seat 8: Scarrface187 ($19)
Seat 9: TexasBalla ALLN ($5.15)
fanifac posts the small blind of $0.05
J03Mannix posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nickm690 [9s 9c]
serrie folds
Lapys folds
serrie stands up
nickm690 raises to $0.35
GoHuskies69 adds $2
smertskosoj folds
Scarrface187 calls $0.35
TexasBalla ALLN folds
fanifac folds
J03Mannix folds
*** FLOP *** [Td Ts 6c]
nickm690 bets $0.60
Scarrface187 calls $0.60
*** TURN *** [Td Ts 6c] [Ad]
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 bets $0.80
Scarrface187 calls $0.80
*** RIVER *** [Td Ts 6c Ad] [5c]
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 checks
Scarrface187 bets $2.80
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 folds
Uncalled bet of $2.80 returned to Scarrface187
Scarrface187 mucks
Scarrface187 wins the pot ($3.30)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.65 | Rake $0.35
Board: [Td Ts 6c Ad 5c]
Seat 1: tewreal is sitting out
Seat 2: fanifac (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: J03Mannix (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: serrie didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Lapys didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: nickm690 folded on the River
Seat 7: smertskosoj didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Scarrface187 collected ($3.30), mucked
Seat 9: TexasBalla ALLN (button) didn't bet (folded)

Just give up after flop?

FullTiltPoker Game #7186524368: Table Abercorn - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:25:42 ET - 2008/07/12
Seat 1: ijumpedthborder ($4.60)
Seat 2: sPenT112 ($4.50)
Seat 3: J03Mannix ($10.45)
Seat 4: serrie ($18.15)
Seat 5: Lapys ($2.20)
Seat 6: nickm690 ($9.25)
Seat 7: smertskosoj ($2)
Seat 8: Scarrface187 ($19.45)
Seat 9: TexasBalla ALLN ($3.90)
Lapys posts the small blind of $0.05
nickm690 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nickm690 [Kd Ac]
Scarrface187 folds
TexasBalla ALLN raises to $0.20
ijumpedthborder folds
sPenT112 folds
J03Mannix folds
serrie folds
Lapys folds
sPenT112 stands up
nickm690 raises to $0.70
fanifac adds $10
TexasBalla ALLN calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [4d Jc 3h]
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 bets $0.90
TexasBalla ALLN raises to $3.20, and is all in
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 has requested TIME
nickm690 folds
Uncalled bet of $2.30 returned to TexasBalla ALLN
TexasBalla ALLN mucks
TexasBalla ALLN wins the pot ($2.95)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.25 | Rake $0.30
Board: [4d Jc 3h]
Seat 1: ijumpedthborder didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: sPenT112 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: J03Mannix didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: serrie (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Lapys (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: nickm690 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: smertskosoj is sitting out
Seat 8: Scarrface187 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: TexasBalla ALLN collected ($2.95), mucked

Player just sat at table so no read at all.

FullTiltPoker Game #7186759621: Table Snow Trail - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:53:13 ET - 2008/07/12
Seat 1: AKplayer49 ($5.30)
Seat 2: Joe Lush ($3.40)
Seat 3: 420cardshark ($5.80)
Seat 4: playmoneychark ($2.45)
Seat 5: chenchaoying ($1.85)
Seat 6: konggede ($9.90)
Seat 7: nickm690 ($9.80)
Seat 8: Bigmoney1987 ($13.75)
Seat 9: sbw34723 ($13.95)
konggede posts the small blind of $0.05
nickm690 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nickm690 [Qh Qc]
Bigmoney1987 raises to $0.35
sbw34723 folds
AKplayer49 folds
Joe Lush folds
420cardshark folds
playmoneychark folds
chenchaoying folds
konggede folds
nickm690 raises to $0.80
Bigmoney1987 calls $0.45
*** FLOP *** [Ts 5d 2c]
nickm690 bets $1.10
Bigmoney1987 calls $1.10
*** TURN *** [Ts 5d 2c] [4c]
nickm690 has 15 seconds left to act
nickm690 bets $2.50
Bigmoney1987 folds
Uncalled bet of $2.50 returned to nickm690
nickm690 mucks
nickm690 wins the pot ($3.50)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.85 | Rake $0.35
Board: [Ts 5d 2c 4c]
Seat 1: AKplayer49 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Joe Lush didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: 420cardshark didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: playmoneychark didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: chenchaoying (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: konggede (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: nickm690 (big blind) collected ($3.50), mucked
Seat 8: Bigmoney1987 folded on the Turn
Seat 9: sbw34723 didn't bet (folded)

Maybe a smaller bet on turn to extract more?

I Only have about 800 hands logged since coming back but ive been pretty consistently playing a 17/9 game, i know its too early on to obsess about what i need to adjust but any input is appreciated.

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Outlaw

07-12-2008, 12:34 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Hand 1- If he is stealing a lot from the cutoff, I prefer to 3-bet from the button instead of flatting. Also, on that flop you have a huge hand. try to get it all in by the turn.

Hand 2- I check/fold the turn depending on the read

Hand 3- Played fine.

Hand 4- Your bet was fine, you don't want to give a villain odds on a drawy board like that. Unless he has a big draw is he going to call say a $2 bet? I doubt it. This is how big pairs typically turn out if you are called preflop. Just be glad he called 1 bet.

17/9 is fine, try to tighten that up a bit to 17/15, 15/13, etc.. next time you are about to call a player, consider raising instead.. especially in position. If he is running something like 35/5 its a really profitable play. Don't let these donks get to the flop cheap against you.

bjsaust

07-12-2008, 01:34 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Your play doesnt make a lot of sense in some spots there. Think about WHY you're betting in certain spots.

Just playing to improve.

Redstripe

07-12-2008, 03:27 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Warwick, RI

Posts: 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Your play doesnt make a lot of sense in some spots there. Think about WHY you're betting in certain spots.

Can ya be more specific?

Robb

07-12-2008, 05:11 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redstripe

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Your play doesnt make a lot of sense in some spots there. Think about WHY you're betting in certain spots.

Can ya be more specific?

The QQ hand was the best you played. nh, and NO, don't bet smaller on turn.

What you'd like to do is cbet in the other hands like you mean it. After 50-100 hands against you, I would probably have this read on you: "weak cbets mean mediocre hands." When you cbet (betting AK after catching air on the flop), you have to rep something to get people to fold. Sometimes, you have make a full PSB (pot-sized bet) on air, or villains know you don't have anything. You don't ALWAYS do this, of course, but you have to mix up your play more.

My suggestion would be to make a least 1/3 of your cbets PSB's, and start making PSB's on the flop with at least 1/2 of your TPTK/overpair hands. Do this in two ways:

1. Check more often with air. If don't think you can continue with a bet on the turn after getting called and catching air, just fold sometimes.

2. Cbet bigger a larger percentage of the time when you do decide to attack the flop with air + overcards.

Another suggestion: Overpairs are good hands at this level. You should be willing to bet big (3/4 pot) on both the flop and turn with a hand like JJ on a Txx flop. You'd be surprised how many top pair/weak kicker hands will continue and extra street further than they should here.

I think BJ's point was that your cbets often invite villain to continue with hands that are slightly better than yours or that have a lot of outs against you. Plan your turn BEFORE you bet the flop. With weak hands, try this. Bet a full PSB if you're planning on NOT continuing on the turn, and bet 2/3's if you are. The bigger bet will get the most folds from medium strength hands.

Finally, I think both BJ and I looked at the HH's and saw disconnected betting, like you made each decision in a vacuum with no plan for the hand afterwards. It's important that your bets tell a consistent story. Instead, you seem to bet/call based EXACTLY on the strength of your hand, so there's no deception. If you bet AK on a Jxx flop like you have KK, you have to bet the turn like you STILL have KK, even when a blank hits. If not, you're playing your cards face up. If you're not planning to bet the turn like you have KK, make a reasonable flop bet/call/check and follow that up with a consistent action.

I'm rambling. Sorry. The key here is to quit worrying about your own cards so much (level 1 thinking), and start thinking about villain's cards (level 2 thinking) + the board and betting. The only clues villains have on our play is the board and betting. They only know what we have if they have the guts + cards to call us down to the river.

I'll give one concrete example. You have 88 and raise from the BTN after two limpers. EP folds, MP calls. The board comes KT3 rainbow. What should you do? Remember that your open raise basically said "I have big cards" and villains limp behind/call basically replies that "I have small cards," in this case sc's, a small pp or Axs junk. Of course, he might have something better. But he's not advertising it, yet.

This is a perfect situation to cbet the wired 8's at least 3/4's pot. The flop smacks your advertised range in the face, and misses his advertised range big time. You can win this hand right here because lots of Tx and Kx hands will fold, even though they're way ahead. And most of the junk will fold, too. The times we win right here are worth it, and we're content later to check/call or check/fold with reasonable showdown value. The cbet forces him to commit on medium-strength hands, or fold them. And the worst thing about medium-strength hands (Kx in this example) is they tend to get worse and worse on later streets, making it difficult for him to put pressure on you.

Hope this helps.

There's a lot more to it. Check these posts for more ideas:

1. Renton's Guide for SS NLHE. 3 mega-posts intended to help noobies think coherently about all phases of play. The other two are linked in the article, and all three are in the Beginner's Digest.

2. Spoon's Good Example of When to Cbet. Also see A Good Example of When Not to Cbet. These are two threads that got me thinking more coherently about cbetting.

3. Renton's ABCD Theorem post. Explains expert postflop thinking in a way beginner's (like me) can readily understand.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Redstripe

07-12-2008, 11:54 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Warwick, RI

Posts: 8

This is some very good advice Robb, exactly what i was hopin to get. I have read some of your other posts and its always good stuff. I have also read some of Rentons articles and i really like his strategies. Im gonna check out the threads you suggested later on when i get some time.

bjsaust

07-13-2008, 01:50 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

I'll probably miss a couple, but the main reasons for betting are:

For value - probably have best hand, bet to win $'s with it.
For protection - a decent hand on a drawy board and you want to charge any draws.
A bluff - you just want your opponent to fold.

People generally bluff too often, but one key is to have a believably strong hand that will get them to fold hands better than yours but not as good as the hand you're pretending to have.

Onto your hands:

Hand 1 - Probably a fold PF, but as it is you raise the flop. This is mainly value, but somewhat for protection v's a draw. When he calls some alarms should go off. What worse hands is he calling your raise with here? When the 2nd J hits the turn, the amount of possible hands you beat just decreased dramatically. Why are you betting now? Its unlikely to be for value anymore, and draws only make up a small portion of his range. At this moment you should be hoping to showdown as cheaply as possible, but instead you're bloating the pot. Ask yourself why you bet the turn?

Hand 2: Flop bet is good. Again its mainly for value, but also protects yourself from overcards hitting on the turn. When he calls and the worst one does, you need to evaluate your options. Remember the A is a scare card for him as well as you (if he doesnt have one), but you put in a really small weak bet, which allows him to call with weak hands he might otherwise fold. You're not telling a convincing story here. Your bet doesnt make sense if you're ahead of him (which is what you want him to think).

Hand 3 is fine, nice c-bet.

Hand 4 is fine, you want to take him to value town here.

So get what I mean about thinking about WHY you're betting, and betting in a way to achieve that aim.

Just playing to improve.

Stacks

07-13-2008, 02:02 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

To add to bjsausts reasons to bet, I've been told by alot of good players that the when you bet you mainly want to achieve these 3 things:

1) Get better hands to fold
2) Get worse hands to call
3) Protect a vulnerable hand

Following that if you have a monster hand you want to bet for value to build a pot because your hand is soooo good that alot of worse hands are out there that stand to call you. And you are so comfortable with your hand that you are wanting to build a pot and felt with it.

When you have absolutely nothing but air you should be inclined to bet because your hand is so poor that you have no showdown value. Say you end up seeing a flop of AT6 with 24. Betting here gets alot of better hands to fold.

So I always try to run through what a bet will accomplish before I make it and if it meets some of those 3 goals then it's generally a good idea.

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I Think i need to work on my postflop play... 10NL

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