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wonderland
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10-20-2008, 09:24 AM
Post subject: was i right to shove here?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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http://weaktight.com/465538
and were they wrong to call?
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Biglines
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 108
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Villain is not getting the odds to call
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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best hand won
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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oi sephiroth, i asked if i was right to shove.
i can see the best hand won.
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MrWee
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 16
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I would've shoved. Only if he has QQ is it a real bad time, even then you still have the flush draw. Think his call was terribad. Anyway take that with a pinch of salt, I've just finished playing 5nl.
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ponyboy
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10-20-2008, 10:52 AM
Post subject: Re: was i right to shove here?
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#6 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
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Yes, they should not have called but at that level they will.
*Note* - Villain flat calls a 4xbb raise in EP with A3 sooted.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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ship me ur stars name and i will ship u $5
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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well 5.55
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ChrisBCritter
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Falmouth, ME
Posts: 781
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptanes
ship me ur stars name and i will ship u $5
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Take him up on this! This is a really good deal, considering you only lost $2.72...
Per the hand, the shove is a little overboard IMO, but you were able to get a call from a worse hand, so nothing to complain about there. Villian played bad, but got lucky. Next?
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Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i don't like the shove here. in this particular case it was right to shove and get him to call with incorrect odds, but by shoving you force other weak hands to fold
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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A shove is wrong, and his call is wrong. Both of you messed up there imo.
Raise to like $0.8-$1 (maybe more) and then re-evaluate on turn, unless you have a read that these players suck and will call your shove with lots of hands that you have beat.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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I would've raised to .70 on the flop, and THEN shoved over a 3-bet. I have no problem felting top two at these levels 'cause people pay off with much worse. Problem with shoving 2.64 into .52 is often you'll just fold out most of the sh!t that you beat... And of course he shouldn't have called - he needs around 2:1 to hit the flush by the River, but meh... the best hand won. 
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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you played this perfect imo. nh.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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no need to shove $2.64 when it is $.20 to you with a $.70 pot. just do a normal raise and play poker. if you had a read on villain that they will call massive overbets with bad hands then i guess go ahead and do it but you prob didn't have that read.
and of course they were wrong to call. they were on a draw. did they have correct odds to call? no, so they made a mistake.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Triptanes, what's the deal? i don't get it. Can you explain please?
I did have a read on both players. I think i saw one of them raise with very poor kickers before. I wanted to give them terrible odds to call because I felt that they were dying to make their hands better on later streets.
Fucker calling with a draw though. I hit flushes SO infrequently that i'm slowly starting to leave them alone and not respect them. I would complain that half my bankroll goes on bad calls but then the other half is won because of bad calls.
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What, you can't calculate his odds yourself?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What, you can't calculate his odds yourself?
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What, you can't refrain from posting useless shit in the BC?
Wonderland, I raise this up to $0.10c preflop first of all. You have a decent hand, but you have position, and can very likely isolate on the limper. On the flop you would raise any donk lead to a sizable amount (4x or so the original bet, if the original bet is a standard size like 2/3 or so... Just saying if he min donks, don't only raise 4x that minbet)...
As played I would be raising the flop to around $1 or so. If he reraises, as sarbox said, I'm happy to stack off with Top Two here against a relatively unknown villain (and well all villains at 2nl). If he just calls, then you have a decision to make when the flush card hits on the turn.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
I did have a read on both players. I think i saw one of them raise with very poor kickers before. I wanted to give them terrible odds to call because I felt that they were dying to make their hands better on later streets.
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well just cuz they raised earlier with bad kickers doesn't mean it's ok to raise 13x the bet. normally you will just get folds in this situation which is not optimum. overbetting due to fear of draws completing is the way you win the least with your good hands.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What, you can't calculate his odds yourself?
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Wow now that's some grade A shit.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Why is my comment useless? If I say what his odds are, I'll be giving odds on one hand. If I encourage wonderland to calculate the odds himself in every hand, he'll calculate them for the rest of his life. Then he won't have to make these posts anymore, take the bad beat and move on.
now that's a useless comment
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Why is my comment useless? If I say what his odds are, I'll be giving odds on one hand. If I encourage wonderland to calculate the odds himself in every hand, he'll calculate them for the rest of his life. Then he won't have to make these posts anymore, take the bad beat and move on.
now that's a useless comment |
Or you could have typed this in the first place and actually be useful.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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i mean, i know he had shit odds to call. I was looking for more subtleties like, what SHOULD I have bet instead.
I am having a hard time with raising certain hands in certain spots. I notice a considerable leak in raising, getting called by a few, half hitting or missing, cbetting, getting called, then having to fold because i don't have squat.
common issues that i'm finding:
a) i raise and hit, so i bet and get taken to the river where fish makes 2 pair
b) i raise and get called by everyone
c) i raise bigger and only get one caller but miss consistently and find i'm down half a buy in during a particular dry spell where i miss and the villain hits
d) i get a great hand and raise and everyone folds (no biggy, i don't mind this so much but when all of the above happens, it's tiring)
Even so, this was a raised pot pre flop so even if i HAD raised, mister A3s would have called.
I think i should be less 'all or nothing' I tend to think, well, if half my stack is going to the flop, i may as well lose all of it. So i could bet heavy to the turn and then when i smell that foul flush, just fold reluctantly.
There's no way i wanted them to call though, they were both fired up and i just knew someone was gonna suck out. I guess this doesn't sound professional but I could almost sense a suckout about to take place if i didn't put my foot right down. I'd have been happy to take up what was already in the pot.
People were standard betting .08 and .010c on the flop for ages, so when someone puts down .20c they mean business and i just wanted to take it away there. I maybe even felt that Mr. A3's .20c call WAS a draw and wasn't standing for it.
I know my reasoning here isn't excellent, but it's where i'm at or where i'm 'stuck' however you want to look at it.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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First off, quit saying your major problems are when you bet and aren't hitting. Or when the fish make two pair to beat you on the river. Those are not your biggest problems. You have a ton of leaks, just like 90% of the players on FTR (myself definately included).
Start looking at whether your bet with air was correct. Was the c-bet correct in the instances (board texture, villain, etc). Where you ahead when the money went in? Did you play it correctly? Could you have folded? Those are all general questions to evaluate your play.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
Even so, this was a raised pot pre flop so even if i HAD raised, mister A3s would have called.
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This is probably incorrect. I say probably because we can't be certain what a villain will do, but if you notice the SB's raise was incredibly small, and there was already another call in between, with a good chance of you calling as well. This would be less likely had you raised a proper amount from the BU. Likely result is the blinds fold and Mister A3s folds as well. Or he calls and now you have a raised pot in position, with a pretty good hand.
This would make this situation alot better as the pot would be larger, allowing you to bet larger and get the money in quicker before the board goes really bad.
Also you shouldn't think in terms of all or nothing. Every hand you play doesn't mean you should be willing to stack off or just get out of the hand. You may end up putting a large portion of your stack in and then things go wrong. There isn't a need to push in the other 50bb if you know you are beat. Learning solid pot control, and bet sizing will help in this category.
And remember you make money when your villains make mistakes. Here he made a mistake. You got him to call against the odds. However, you could have achieving a mistake by raising less, and still got other weaker parts of his range to possibly come along. By shoving here, yes you are "odds wise" forcing out draws, but there is a high liklihood you have manipulated his calling range into hands that crush you (sets). So the majority of the time you fold out all hands you beat Qx, Tx, JJ, etc and only get called when your behind (despite the draws).
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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I think pre flop, at this stage in my game, i wouldn't have played things differently and overall as i look at it, i just think it's one of those one off unfortunate hands.
I don't value many hands pre flop in terms of a) raising but b) 3betting. QT is an 'okay' hand and as i've learned lately, it being suited makes very little difference in terms of of flush probabilities.
So i can't ever see me 3betting here to force out the mediocre hands with QT.
Side note: in my 5000+ hands experience of this stake (0.01/0.02) people don't understand 3betting. Say someone bets 3 x bb UTG and you have AK after him, you'd want to make it so that not ever sunovabitch can afford to make that tiny call. What happens though, is that mister original raiser thinks... oh, a wise guy huh.... and they fuckin 4bet. I see it all the time, they don't realise i'm 3betting to clear out any drawing hands.
And i can NOT believe that the villain called with what he had, i can't imagine anyone else calling that shit, so i don't see this as being a situation that will come up much at all. Had i hit JUST the queen, fine i'd have folded with my average kicker. Had the other players been tight, fine, i'd have put them on a better hand.
But in future, at these stakes, i might try to just bet big instead of going all in. Overall, having done this a reasonable amount, it in itself is a leak. I need to be prepared to lose half my stack by the river and then turn around rather than my whole stack on the flop because i'm pot committed.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
i mean, i know he had shit odds to call. I was looking for more subtleties like, what SHOULD I have bet instead.
I am having a hard time with raising certain hands in certain spots. I notice a considerable leak in raising, getting called by a few, half hitting or missing, cbetting, getting called, then having to fold because i don't have squat.
common issues that i'm finding:
a) i raise and hit, so i bet and get taken to the river where fish makes 2 pair
b) i raise and get called by everyone
c) i raise bigger and only get one caller but miss consistently and find i'm down half a buy in during a particular dry spell where i miss and the villain hits
d) i get a great hand and raise and everyone folds (no biggy, i don't mind this so much but when all of the above happens, it's tiring)
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Over time I learned that bet sizing is very important. It is also read dependant and sometimes they are going to call anyway if they are a loose passive player. I have worked on this for a while and I'm still working on it.
For your issues:
a) bet more - you need to make sure that if they want to see that next card, they are going to pay for it. If they are still calling PSB's with 2nd/3rd pair on the flop then you will make massive money from them.
b) raise more - some tables require 6-10xBB preflop to only get a couple of callers, especially at 2NL.
c) Even if you miss, c-bet enough so that you know the guy isn't calling with nothing but a draw. Eventually over time this will pay off. See A.
d) You win. Move on. You will get more great hands.
Bottom line is that your opponent played the hand badly, sucked out and got your money. It happens. What is important is what you learn from it so that next time maybe you change a couple of things. Also, the next three times this happens you statistically will win, therefore profiting in the long run. Keep working.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Wonderland, I think your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying 3bet preflop. As actually you would be limp/raising. You are ont he BU and UTG limped. You could have raised then, and isolated on the limper doing all the things I stated. That isn't a 3bet. I definately don't condone limp/raising SB here.
And as far as the 2nl crowd understanding 3betting, I agree that they don't. But that's a good thing. You don't want them to understand how to maximize value out of their strong hands, or exploit your tendency to fold to 3bets too often. But also, 3betting preflop (along with 4betting, 5betting etc) is much more than you think. Just because you know they don't understand it, don't be certain you do (not saying you think that, just stating in general).
Remember, we want to be playing against the bad players. The ones that call against the odds, 4b bluff when you aren't 3b bluffing, do not understand position, etc. These are the guys we make money off of just like you made money this hand.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,449
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I agree with trip tens
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I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Wow this thread is silly and useless
OP, your shove is perfectly fine, at this level you will be called by a lot of worse hands and the board is very draw-heavy.
He was incorrect to call against your exact hand, however, if you had like KsQs he was right to call, as he would be like a 45% underdog and there would be too much money in the pot to fold.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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if this threas is silly and useless, i don't need to take your advice, nor do you need to give it.
But you did.
Thanks for putting in some perspectives guys, i know in the long run i should be profiting here a lot but i've been stuck at a plateau for ages now that i can't seem to get past. My bank roll has been yoyoing between $50 and $60 for three weeks now. My graph looks like bart simpson's hair cut.
i can't think of how to conclude this thread... umm... there's a lot to think about, lots of pre flop theory and post flop theory.
I guess i conclude that, given the players i was up against, i didn't make any black and white mistakes(?), maybe they were subtle such as isolating the limper initially, but that fucker with A3 probably just flipped a coin when deciding to call. And he lost if he plays like that all the time.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
And he lost if he plays like that all the time.
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Something like 90% of poker players lose. Some actually enjoy it. We can just all try to be in the other 10%.
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
There's no way i wanted them to call though, they were both fired up and i just knew someone was gonna suck out. I guess this doesn't sound professional but I could almost sense a suckout about to take place if i didn't put my foot right down. I'd have been happy to take up what was already in the pot.
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Tangential issue, while we're trying to fix leaks:
I quoted your tilt above. It's irrational thinking. Make sure you identify it for what it is. The quicker the better. Don't reinforce tilty play by subscribing to notions of clairvoyance.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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lol
ok ok.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Keep it up bro... you're doing goot! Sure you'll blow past my old, slow @ss sometime here soon...
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Wrong forum.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigteif
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 116
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Wrong forum.
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why?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigteif
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Wrong forum.
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why? |
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/tilt-f42.html
cuz it's a bad beat post
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Still need OPs stars name, I will give you your equity in the pot!
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eternal
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 33
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If you keep playing like this you will end up way ahead in the long run! This is one of the things I find most profitable is flush draws calling pushes at these levels, and yes they will hit 1/4 times but your way +ev
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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time for a new thread {locked}
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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