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I have become gunshy - how to change this?

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givememyleg

11-23-2005, 01:36 AM Post subject: I have become gunshy - how to change this?

#1 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN

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Hello

My name is Carl and I am new to this wonderful forum and site and want to say hello to everyone.

Now, All summer I had been exceeding my expectations and was making a decent amount of money on the .25 / .50 NL tables on pokerstars. I had loved what I was doing and I felt good about my game... then tragedy struck.

I did something I always told myself not to do.. I moved up in limit too fast. I had about $800 for my bankroll and I got so bored playing such low stakes. I wanted a rush and something better - I got too greedy. If I wouldn't have made this move I could have continued my $200 a week in earnings that I had been averaging, which I was proud of. Well, I jumped to the $1 / $2 NL and I had two very very very bad beats that just destroyed my bankroll. AA losing to AK and AA losing to 55 with all my money in the pot both times. I then tilted and did a $100+9 SnG

Well anyway, since this has happened I find myself in pots where I do not know what to do. For example -

PokerStars Game #3094780893: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/18 - 20:52:18 (ET)
Table 'Taurus II' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: ToredLonew ($47.35 in chips)
Seat 2: givememyleg ($53.95 in chips)
Seat 3: VICNL ($49.60 in chips)
Seat 4: xin1575 ($46 in chips)
Seat 5: Hellellen ($68.10 in chips)
Seat 7: Ribera10 ($44.90 in chips)
Seat 8: Gilbert256 ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 9: matadorny ($60.20 in chips)
xin1575: posts small blind $0.25
Hellellen: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to givememyleg [Kh Kd]
Ribera10: folds
Gilbert256: folds
matadorny: calls $0.50
ToredLonew: folds
givememyleg: raises $2 to $2.50
VICNL: folds
xin1575: folds
Hellellen: folds
cicatrix has returned
matadorny: calls $2.00
*** FLOP *** [6c 3c 7s]
matadorny: bets $1.50
givememyleg: raises $4.00 to $5.50
matadorny: raises $53.20 to $58.20 and is all-in
givememyleg: folds
matadorny collected $14.05 from pot
matadorny: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14.75 | Rake $0.70

That was a ridiculous overbet and I think an obvious fold - but, but even faced with a reraise of $10 instead of $58 I would fold.. although I feel many people on the 25 / 50 tables would reraise with an underpair to mine, like QQ JJ or even 1010.

Basically I am very gunshy now, even if I have AK and an A flops I do not like putting money into the pot, and because of this I am losing money rather than winning like I was a few months ago... Basically I am undervaluing all of my hands after the flop / turn and even check the river with a decent hand scared of a big bet.... any advice?

(sorry about the rather long post)

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ProZachNation

11-23-2005, 01:41 AM

#2 (permalink)

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You might want to move down in limits if your BR needs it, or if you feel comfortable playing at a lower limit.

I think moving down for a week or two will let you get your confidence back so you can set back up when you feel ready.

Also I have seen that move in 10NL it called the Ego Move where someone doesnt like getting reraised so they go all-in to show they have balls and they you will call to "defend" your honor.

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Checkways

11-23-2005, 05:26 AM Post subject: Re: I have become gunshy - how to change this?

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

Your opponent is representing a set. He limps in ep, calls a raise, bets weak on the flop hoping for a raise, then pushes after you define your hand because he knows that normally his set gets paid off here.

Unless he's been doing this every other hand, I wouldn't call your fold gunshy. I'd call it smart poker.

Got any better examples? Because I know the feeling. Becoming gunshy happens to me when I'm running really bad. It usually takes me a couple of winning sessions to get back on track. Just play through it and think out your difficult decisions. Playing cautiously does not always mean weak.

Peluri

11-23-2005, 06:21 AM Post subject: My advice

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2005

Posts: 11

You made a common mistake to move up when you did not
have proper bankroll to do that. Only way to gain your
confidence is to move to lower limits and play winning poker
there.

As for your example I dont think your were gunshy unless
you knew that you played agains maniac. I would folded too
probably set or better than TPTK anyway.

Peluri

EricE

11-23-2005, 03:59 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 894

As others have said, a good way to gain lost confidence is to move down. By this I mean move down from the $50 tables until you gain your confidence back. Then move back up once you are back on your game. There is no shame in moving down. Everyone has done it at one time or another.

Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL

BankItDrew

11-23-2005, 06:49 PM

#6 (permalink)

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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

Everyone has a limit that makes them 'gasp.' My gasp is $2-$4 tables because one pot could pay for much of my groceries for the week. I am comfortable at $.01-.02 for now, until I get to 20xBB $.10 tables.

You need to establish where your gasp is an stay one or two levels below that.

I found that it's really important to put no monetary value on the chips you sit down with at any given table. They are not worth any money, they are chips that you use as punches like in a boxing match. Don't be afraid to use them as offense, because you have to use them as offense. You won't win chips unless you use your own.

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rubixstreub

11-23-2005, 07:01 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 887

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I found that it's really important to put no monetary value on the chips you sit down with at any given table. They are not worth any money, they are chips that you use as punches like in a boxing match. Don't be afraid to use them as offense, because you have to use them as offense. You won't win chips unless you use your own.

Great analogy BankIt. I think the gasp factor is also huge... when I get destacked for $25 it sucks, but no big deal. If I got destacked for $100 right away I'd be thinking about where that money would have been better spent.

The only part I don't necessarily agree with is seeing chips as just chips ***if that makes you overly frivolous*** Because even if I was playing .01-.02NL I'd still want to win at a good rate regardless of the money. I think this where having pokertracker is such a good reality check on your game. I could go play with pennies at the lowest level and not give a shit, lose a small amount of money, not feel like a loser, but then PT will tell me I'm playing like a complete ass. So I feel detaching yourself from the money is good, but ultimately I think (as knowledgeable poker players) we're all playing to have a positive win rate and the money is a wonderful added bonus that keeps us coming back.

Come give me advice.
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BankItDrew

11-23-2005, 07:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

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If you're pissing away money @ 10NL, you're playing bad poker. If you're pissing away money @ 5NL, you're playing bad poker.

We can't allow our outside feelings (what I could better spend this $10 raise on) affect our gameplay. Once you let this happen, you are not playing to the best of your ability.

Vrax

11-23-2005, 08:33 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Well, I know something about this, cause I moved up-down-u-down-up-down between $25 and $50. And I'm properly rolled for $50, up to Rillas standards, but it seems like the psychological pressure is different for every player.

Lost stack by bad beat/bad read/bad call on $25? "Oh, well, fine, next hand please". $50 and I lose 30 blinds after sensing that my big pair got cracked or ran into slowplayed monster, ok then I will fold but I will feel PISSED and tilt easily...and it's ONLY 2x difference between stakes!

I came to the conclusion that I perform my game correctly while having 30-40x buy-in. Maybe too much, but it's just me and some psychological blocker in my head. Add to this living in no-so-rich country with average salary of $300/month. That process of moving up in stakes is not only "skills, odds". It's also getting used to new colours of chips

If "bet the pot on flop" is now 1 green chip (and the same green chip was used to make huge raise with nuts on lower level), then it feels intimidating in the beginning. Especially when you see that green chip appearing on screen and it feels like "big threat". That feeling (association strength of the hand with amount of betting/chip color) can last a while and cost some pots/stacks in the process. Rippy wrote in some post that "on higher stakes the only thing that changes is color of chips". It's true. But it's tough truth, because we, humans are very visual and make emotional associations with colors. Personally I'd be shitting my pants when I got AA UTG on $5/10 table for example and tried to move slider from 10 to 40. Then seeing green, and 3 red chips, that generally I use to push All-In when I have some monster unbeatable NUTS. Extreme example, but I think it works that way.

That's why I advise you to find YOUR "psychological" threshold of BR/stakes relation. Pump it even to 60 buyins if you need, because moving up costs initially. Count it as "adaptation expenses". It's also better to be fearless (but still smart) on lower stakes than some weaktight scared pussy on higher stakes.

Lots of $50 players are graduates from $25- set farmers, premium hand campers (hey that's me too

), the learned how to bet and reduce drawing odds but they STILL make very loose PFR calls with QJ junk and overvalue big pairs. They also call river pushes like little $2NL fishes, try counterplay and you'll see (make a set, upgrade it to full house, push all-IN 150BB on river and get called by ass-end straight, 2 rags flushes and some moron "trapping" with Aces

)

Counterplay can be some solution to this, but I think it's better to play TAGG on lower stakes. You have to prepare those couple of stacks, that you can lose without going on tilt. It's normal to feel intimidation in the beginning of new stakes and roll must be prepared for initial losses.

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

givememyleg

11-23-2005, 11:01 PM

#10 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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Thanks everyone.. I do agree that my example probably wasn't the best - I would fold that 90% of the time unless I had a good idea of how they had been playing. Well, I guess I just always get too nervous and always think someone has a better hand if they are betting into me. This only happens on cash tables too - in a tournament I am no where near as nervous because I can only potentioanlly lose my buyin not $50 on a hand.

I am now starting to move down and I will play on the 10 / 25 tables for a while and hope I run a little better. Thanks for the advice everyone.

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I have become gunshy - how to change this?

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