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i get owned by a very strange line

  
 
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 06:50 PM     Post subject: i get owned by a very strange line #1 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 what a strange hand. I have 42 of hearts in the bb and some random donk minbets. Ok i'll call i bet i like playing limit holdem from time to time. i flop bottom pair and i already have my cards ready to throw in the virtual muck. It's check yippee a free cardz. I turn a flush draw. i have a decent draw and a weak pair so i lead out. Another player raises i assume he has me beaten but i also assume that my flush draw is nearly 100 percent good. Now it's the play off B1 that confuses me. He could have a made hand literally any made hand or a flush draw. If he has a flush draw then it is likely better then mine so maybe i need to discount my fd a little. no exact science here that i know off but since my fd is pretty weak i will take off a entire out and say i have 8 outs or 16 percent to make my hand useing the good old 2/4 rule. so i am geting shorted a little on current odds but surely implied odds justify a call. So i call then bingo a hit my flush. Hold on wtf b1 springs to life the same b1 that flat called on the turn. Damn he did have the flush. i mean how many 2 nl players are gonna float in that spot so they can bluff any river heart. So i begrudgingly fold my flush. Only to see that b1 was useing the uber advanced i'll flat call with my super strong set on the turn so i can bluff raise the flush if a heart hits.

I know i wanted to get more money in the pot but when he raised i thought he lead the river i thought he is bluffing or has a better flush. I went with better flush. Honestly never would of put him on a set a million years

Absolute Poker (Cash Game): $0.01/$0.02 NL , 9 players
Wed Mar 04 13:39:13 EST 2009
Powered by Poker Academy (Format: 2+2 Forums)

B4 ($2.08)
B3 ($2.68)
B2 ($6.62)
B1 ($0.80)
BN ($3.82)
SB ($1.66)
[color:=ff8c00]Hero ($0.93)[/color]
B6 ($4.24)
B5 ($3.87)

BN is the button.

Precards:
SB posts the small blind $0.01, [color:=ff8c00]Hero posts the big blind $0.02[/color], B1 posts out of turn live blind $0.02.

Preflop: Hero is dealt 4 2 (9 active)
[color:=666666]4 folds[/color], [color:=329632]B2 raises to $0.04[/color], [color:=6495ed]B1 calls $0.02[/color], [color:=666666]2 folds[/color], [color:=ff8c00]Hero calls $0.02[/color].

Flop: 5 K 2 ($0.13, 3 active)
[color:=ff8c00]Hero checks[/color], [color:=6495ed]B2 checks[/color], [color:=6495ed]B1 checks[/color].

Turn: 5 K 2 6 ($0.13, 3 active)
[color:=ff8c00]Hero bets $0.13[/color], [color:=329632]B2 raises to $0.26[/color], [color:=6495ed]B1 calls $0.26[/color], [color:=ff8c00]Hero calls $0.13[/color].

River: 5 K 2 6 J ($0.91, 3 active)
[color:=ff8c00]Hero checks[/color], [color:=6495ed]B2 checks[/color], [color:=329632]B1 bets $0.45[/color], [color:=ff8c00]Hero folds[/color], [color:=6495ed]B2 calls $0.45[/color].

Final Pot: $1.72, $0.09 raked
Hero, net: -$0.30, Folded River, has 4 2 (a Flush, Jack High)
B1, net: $0.97, Won at showdown, has 6 6 (Three of a Kind, Sixes)
B2, net: -$0.75, Lost at showdown, has 8 8 (a Pair of Eights)
SB, net: -$0.01, Folded Preflop
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Stacks
Old 03-04-2009, 06:54 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 So we call for our flush, then hit it, and fold getting 3:1 on our money? Hmm... I'd say that's about as advanced as the flat call with set to raise the flush.
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JKDS
Old 03-04-2009, 07:10 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 tbh, ive seen alot of fish bet the cards that hurt their hands the most. I think its something like a "oh shit" line more than anything else.
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Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
 
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:24 PM #4 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 yea i should of called but logically can you think of a single hand that would normally see a player lead out on that river after flat calling the turn ? Sure the occasional float but not to many 2nl players do that. also 3-1 is not so great if you feel that another player likely rivered a better flush given their action on the river. Are you saying you have never folded a rivered flush? Anyway the dude with a set had a 71 percent equity edge on the turn
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:32 PM #5 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 obviously in hind sight i had a 100 percent edge on the river.
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kmind
Old 03-04-2009, 07:39 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I was trying to think of lines to take after seeing the river card. You completely surprised me by taking the only line I would never ever think about doing.
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sil693
Old 03-04-2009, 07:41 PM #7 (permalink)  
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POTY?
 
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:46 PM #8 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Also kinda off subject why do people who play mid and high stakes assume that micro players play the same way that they players at their stakes play. i mean how many times have you seen the following a well meaning 100nl player chimes in on a 5nl thread and says something like hey buddy you should 4 bet that 57 suited when that other guy in the BB 3 bet your steal attempt first in from the button. Because thinking players know that you are likely stealing so they are 3 betting light. then you can flex and get them to fold a lot to your 4-bet re re steal. Then the 5nl player decides to start useing his fancy new play that he was just taught. Thinking wait till I own some people with my awesome new 4 bet bluff tactic. Screw them for playing back at me when i attack their blinds. Then he bleeds money like a woman on a heavy period useing said tactic.
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:51 PM #9 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by sil693
POTY?
ok so am i the only one that even thought for a second that he could very well have a better flush? I guess everyone else here would have instantly put him on a bluff. I already admitted that i probably should of called but like i said when he lead out i thought oh fudge better flush.
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kmind
Old 03-04-2009, 07:55 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Look at your pot odds. How can he not have ANYTHING else, especially given his weak bet size. Did leading ever cross your mind?
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:56 PM #11 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
I was trying to think of lines to take after seeing the river card. You completely surprised me by taking the only line I would never ever think about doing.
are you saying you wold never fold on that river.
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 07:58 PM #12 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Look at your pot odds. How can he not have ANYTHING else, especially given his weak bet size. Did leading ever cross your mind?
yes and i probably should of.
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kmind
Old 03-04-2009, 07:58 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I am in this situation. Esp. if we are calling the turn. Basically, look at what Stacks wrote.
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 08:00 PM #14 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 by the way i wanted to c-raise the dude with 8s
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 08:09 PM #15 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Look at your pot odds. How can he not have ANYTHING else, especially given his weak bet size. Did leading ever cross your mind?
sure he could have a other hands. Honestly though i'm not use to people calling when their hand is really strong and the board has draws then raising when the draw hits and their hand has become weaker. Anyway all this discussion makes me think of an interesting 2 part project. When players lead the river when a flush card hits how often do the have the flush at 2 nl and how often are they bluffing. I know people at 2p2 figured out that a min raise post flop in mico is nearly always a big hand
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littleogre
Old 03-04-2009, 08:14 PM #16 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 also even if i seem short at times i appreciate the replies anyway i'm a night owl and i'm going to bed. oh and you guys gotta get sf4 best 2d fighting game since 3s
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Gshark
Old 03-04-2009, 08:15 PM #17 (permalink)  
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If I'm calling on the turn hoping to hit my flush then get my wish, I'm probably going to lead out on the river.

As played when he bets, I might think he has a flush too, but since I already felt that my flush draw was good, I'm going to trust that instinct and make the call especially with the odds we're getting.
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oskar
Old 03-05-2009, 12:06 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 have != of

Thinking that people who play much higher have no clue how to play against donks is one way to ignore perfectly good advice. Most of your money at any stake comes from donks, so you better assume they know how to play them.

Why did you bet the turn?

If you're going to c/f when you hit your draw then obviously you shouldn't be calling to draw in the first place here. He made a perfectly reasonable value bet IP after you two checked to him. I don't see anything strange about that. His minraise on the turn is incredibly bad though.
The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-05-2009, 12:42 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 Rule 1 of $2nl: Don't make hero-folds.

Example of why:

(oh and for the record, it's amazing how much my game has changed after looking at how I played this hand compared to how I would have played it now. This was back in early January when I was playing $2nl. Everything would have been done different, starting with preflop. Back then I didn't know much about equity, and wasn't very good at putting villains on ranges. I also sucked at bet-sizing. I really need to thank FTR for pointing me in the right direction with these things.)

Anyway here's me donking it up at 2nl:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($1.81)
MP3 ($5)
CO ($4.23)
Button ($8.88)
SB ($1.10)
Hero (BB) ($5)
UTG ($3.20)
UTG+1 ($0.97)
MP1 ($1.32)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06, MP2 calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06, Button calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.49) 7, 9, 6 (6 players)
Hero bets $0.24, UTG+1 calls $0.24, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.24, 1 fold, Button calls $0.24

Turn: ($1.45) 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks

River: ($1.45) 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.65 (All-In), MP2 raises to $1.30, 1 fold, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.75 | Rake: $0.10

Results:
UTG+1 had A, 4 (flush, Ace high).
MP2 had 3, J (flush, Jack high).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $2.65

Yes he chased the J3 high flush draw when the board was paired and yes he raised it when the board was tripped (lol). I wouldn't have folded if I was heads up, bet out and got raised. At the time I didn't understand why the villain would raise after the player next to me pushed unless he had at least TT, so I just folded. Too bad I forgot this was 2nl haha.
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bjsaust
Old 03-05-2009, 01:30 AM #20 (permalink)  
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I cant see any possible reason for getting to the river if you planned to fold (to OP).
Just playing to improve.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-05-2009, 01:46 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
I cant see any possible reason for getting to the river if you planned to fold (to OP).
yeah it have to admit it was a pretty retarded fold
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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littleogre
Old 03-06-2009, 02:27 AM #22 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
have != of

Thinking that people who play much higher have no clue how to play against donks is one way to ignore perfectly good advice. Most of your money at any stake comes from donks, so you better assume they know how to play them.

Why did you bet the turn?

If you're going to c/f when you hit your draw then obviously you shouldn't be calling to draw in the first place here. He made a perfectly reasonable value bet IP after you two checked to him. I don't see anything strange about that. His minraise on the turn is incredibly bad though.
the guy with the set didn't raise the turn he just called.

Of course high stakes players can beat micro poker so long as they didn't die of boredom. I can almost guarantee you though that they would use a different strat then what they use when they are playing their normal stakes. Are you really trying to say a 2nl game plays the same as 200nl game? If that is true then i am one happy camper.
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ArcadianRock
Old 03-06-2009, 07:04 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Wow, I know it's a low flush but there weren't 4 hearts on the board, just three. And you have 2 of them which means there are only 7 left and you think he had two of the seven? I'm shoving there personally in $2NL, people can't let go of two pair, if he has you beat oh well but the odds are too good to call and you can lose a lot more money in other situations worse than this.

I actually see the last bet as value.
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