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I don't get it am I supposed to just fold here?

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-25-2009, 05:53 AM     Post subject: I don't get it am I supposed to just fold here? #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($33.45)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($92.50)
MP2 ($57.90)
CO ($25)
Hero (Button) ($25)
SB ($16.80)
BB ($31.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.75, 2 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 calls $2

Flop: ($8.60) J, 3, 7 (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $5.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $5.25

Turn: ($19.10) K (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: ($19.10) Q (2 players)
MP2 bets $17, Hero pukes a bit...
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro
Old 04-25-2009, 05:55 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 obv just sat down
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bjsaust
Old 04-25-2009, 08:31 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Bet turn, only hand that improved is JK unless he floated with overs (unlikely since you'd expect him to raise most AK, AQ, KQ, etc).
Just playing to improve.
 
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XTR1000
Old 04-25-2009, 08:47 AM #4 (permalink)  
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rarely does he float bare overs when u cbet a 3bet 3way, yet whatever Kxhh hes calling pre improved. Easy b/f turn, c/f river imo
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bjsaust
Old 04-25-2009, 10:27 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Yeah, fact is we can comfortably bet for value on the turn though. This is what b/f was invented for.
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AFchung
Old 04-25-2009, 11:03 AM #6 (permalink)  
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pot becomes bloated by the turn value bet if we make one. does this commit us to calling a shove regardless of river?
http://afchung.blogspot.com/
 
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Hoopy
Old 04-25-2009, 11:07 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 As said above b/f the turn, if he calls then the river is an easy call since your priced in.

As played with no reads I'd fold the river and give the unknown credit the first time round.
 
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bjsaust
Old 04-25-2009, 11:47 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Interesting. We've bet $9 already, so we only have $16 in our stack. $16 seems a little big when we want a J, a draw or smaller pairs to call us, but betting say $11 and leaving $5 behind seems a bit silly too. Even another $1 more on the flop would have a $21 pot and $15 behind which would be nicer, if we can plan that far ahead.

I guess as played if we bet $12 on the turn yeah I'd call the last $4 regardless of river card, because our pot odds justify times he's bluffing whatever the card is.
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OneEyeLefty
Old 04-25-2009, 12:06 PM #9 (permalink)  
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So what do we have him on? AK/AT hearts? Surely he hit the flush and not the overs unless he was smooth calling the turn to hit his flush? Thoughts?
Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-25-2009, 09:10 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFchung
pot becomes bloated by the turn value bet if we make one. does this commit us to calling a shove regardless of river?
yeah this is why i checked. there's no way im betting the turn like $9 and folding to less than a min raise or folding getting like 5:1 on the river in this case if we bet earlier.

betting the turn sort of turns our hand into a bluff unless he's a station and will call down Jx flush draws or like TT anyway, and checking back gives him a free card. when the turn came I had no idea what to do based on this since I know nothing about the guy.

this hand actually would have been easier to play if I didn't 3-bet preflop (in hindsight of course).

Does anyone like overshoving flop? lol
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro
Old 04-25-2009, 09:11 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 one other point: this could very well be a very shitty played set on villain's part since he just called the 3-bet preflop.

thought's on how much JJ/33/77 might be showing up here on the riv?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bjsaust
Old 04-25-2009, 09:52 PM #12 (permalink)  
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[] Betting the turn kind of turns our hand into a bluff.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-25-2009, 11:00 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
[] Betting the turn kind of turns our hand into a bluff.
does Jx stack off or even call a bet when the king comes on the turn? (assuming villain doesn't hold KJ)
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Muzzard
Old 04-25-2009, 11:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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bet 6-7 on flop shove turn if unknown, if you have stats/reads maybe play it different idk.

Is QQ in your pf value stacking off range vs this player? If not i'd prefer you to call pre.

If he's decent, he shouldn't be calling with anything that his a set on this flop OOP preflop - reads/stats woudl help. If he's totally unknown then I just presume he's retarded and just bet bet.
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bjsaust
Old 04-25-2009, 11:08 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Yes. You cant on one hand complain about people calling down with crap and sucking out on you, then say theres no value when you're hoping weakish hands will call.
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Robb
Old 04-26-2009, 04:27 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
Is QQ in your pf value stacking off range vs this player? If not i'd prefer you to call pre.
I'm finding that just flatting ip w/ premium pp's can be very ++EV. If I 3bet here, it's to $3.

As played, I think you need to cbet the flop bigger. You're very likely ahead. I'm betting at least $6 into $8.60, often as much as $7 depending on the reads I have on the villains. As BJ pointed out above, that takes away the bet/fold option turn, but w/ QQ overs in a 3bet pot you want to get the chips in before the overcard comes.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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surviva316
Old 04-26-2009, 04:38 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 might be a terrible question but is turning our showdown hand into a bluff so bad? i mean i don't think we're getting any more streets of value out of lesser hands regardless of how we play it
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-26-2009, 06:30 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 after reading more comments and combining everyones thoughts i think the best line is $7ish on flop which sets up for a easier shove on turn.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Muzzard
Old 04-26-2009, 11:54 AM #19 (permalink)  
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I think u need to look into the merits of just calling pre.

What are you doing the majority of the time if he 4bets. Ifu have history/know he's retarded then sure u can shove for value. But vs most ppl, ur going to be in bad shape vs most 4bets.

You have position, u'll be underrepped, so i think u can make more money a lot of the time here just by calling. If he calls ur 3b, yeah sure he's going to have weaker hands in his range, but I don't think we canmake as much moneyas we're repping a pretty strong hand.
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Robb
Old 04-26-2009, 12:11 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzard
I think u need to look into the merits of just calling pre.

What are you doing the majority of the time if he 4bets. Ifu have history/know he's retarded then sure u can shove for value. But vs most ppl, ur going to be in bad shape vs most 4bets.

You have position, u'll be underrepped, so i think u can make more money a lot of the time here just by calling. If he calls ur 3b, yeah sure he's going to have weaker hands in his range, but I don't think we canmake as much moneyas we're repping a pretty strong hand.
This is good advice, just a word of caution. To profit from this advice, you have to be comfortable playing QQ on Axx and Kxx boards. This requires:

1. Being good at putting people on ranges
2. Floating for value
3. Raising for thin value
4. Being good at putting people on ranges
5. Being good at putting people on ranges
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dranger7070
Old 04-26-2009, 12:20 PM #21 (permalink)  
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So putting people on ranges is coming across as pretty important, but im not sure... Thoughts? lol
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sil693
Old 04-26-2009, 01:29 PM #22 (permalink)  
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fuck ranges, flop sets.
 
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dranger7070
Old 04-26-2009, 07:45 PM #23 (permalink)  
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So...

1.) Fuck ranges
2.) Flop sets
3.) Profitz????
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connectthesuitors
Old 04-26-2009, 09:43 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
So...

1.) Fuck ranges
2.) Flop sets
3.) Profitz????
Fuck if you wrote a book on pokerz I'd buy it!!
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dranger7070
Old 04-26-2009, 10:33 PM #25 (permalink)  
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I will start immediately.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-27-2009, 08:20 AM #26 (permalink)  
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 yeah i don't really like the 3-bet just sort of auto did it (palm to the face), i meant as played when I gave the suggestion on how to play the hand.

i think 3-betting actually made it more difficult to figure out where i was at too, since i was unsure on their 3-bet calling ranges
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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XTR1000
Old 04-27-2009, 12:40 PM #27 (permalink)  
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I really dislike flatting pre with a caller already in and not closing the action
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xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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