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I cant fold bigpairs enough, when i do i hate myself...

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Sl4y3r

02-04-2009, 06:55 AM Post subject: I cant fold bigpairs enough, when i do i hate myself...

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2008

Location: Adelaide, Australia

Posts: 59

Hi guys, I just cant seem to letgo of my pairs, it frustrates me somuch. Most of the time i feel like its no good but i cant help myself. How do you guys manage it? what can i tell myself? please help me help myself

Heres two examples from my last session

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($12.24)
UTG+1 ($10.34)
MP1 ($5.56)
MP2 ($3.75)
MP3 ($8.77)
CO ($13.55)
Hero (Button) ($9.30)
SB ($1.32)
BB ($14.91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J

, J

5 folds, CO raises $0.50, Hero raises $1.60, 2 folds, CO calls $1.10

Flop: ($3.35) 10

, 5

, 7

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.80, CO calls $2.80

Turn: ($8.95) 4

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $4.90 (All-In), CO calls $4.90

River: ($18.75) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $18.75

Villian here was LAG- i just didnt believe him

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($9.65)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($9.88)
MP ($1.99)
CO ($9.65)
Button ($10.73)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, J

2 folds, CO calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises $0.40, CO calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.05) 4

, K

, 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, CO raises $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($4.25) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.06, Hero raises $3.50, CO calls $2.44

River: ($11.25) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Total pot: $11.25

And heres a fold soon after out of frustration

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($12.29)
UTG ($8.17)
UTG+1 ($2)
MP1 ($2.50)
MP2 ($4.52)
CO ($8.68)
Button ($10.64)
SB ($4.36)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, K

6 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises $0.30, SB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.80) 7

, 4

, A

(2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.80

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hangchiong

02-04-2009, 10:50 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 359

Hand 1:
Your flop bet is huge.Board is not very drawy,so you want weaker hands to call you or bluff you.You posted no reads,so not much thing we can comment on here.

Hand 2:
Watch out for the min raise.You call the min raise,but c/r the turn?Im pretty nitty,so i usually dont make this play.And then you check the river??

Hand 3:
Reads or Stats?Flat calling flop and evaluate turn would be fine.Need some read on folding on the flop.A lot of combos that villain have that we beat on the flop.

Stacks

02-04-2009, 01:17 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

You should be putting villain on a range of hands in every situation and evaluate how your hand fairs against that range. Just because your hand is a big pair doesn't mean it's the nuts. It only matters when it's compared to villains range.

Hand 1: You didn't post any reads, so I will assume an unknown here. At FR rarely will you find me 3betting JJ, especially without reads. It's just that the majority of villains play too nitty when facing a 3bet that you won't really get too many worse hands to call when you 3bet JJ. Therefore, since you don't fold out better hands by raising, and you don't get worse hands to call all that often, it's usually smarter to just call and play a flop against his wider opening range.

Since you did make the mistake of 3betting JJ here, you have altered his range. His range is much tighter now, and your hand is likely at the bottom of his range. I would expect villain to show up with QQ the majority of the time. Anyways, I'm likely checking behind on the flop for pot control. But I wouldn't be in this spot anyways.

Hand 2: This is just played bad. Just bet/fold the flop. Yeah I know it's a minraise, but you really only have two outs if he has you beat.

Hand 3: There is no way I'm folding this flop. Sure there is an ace on the board, but you need to consider his entire range, not just the part that beats you (or that you beat). He limp/called preflop blind v blind. He can easily be doing this with 87, 67, 54, small pps, air, flush draw, straight draw, etc type hands. In my experience, a donk lead from a weak player is more often than not weak. It's usually hands they don't know how to play profitably if they were to check and you were to bet.

I call this flop and call most turn bets.

Sl4y3r

02-05-2009, 12:34 PM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2008

Location: Adelaide, Australia

Posts: 59

Thanks guys, im reviewing all of my JJ/TT/99 hands and finding that im 3betting alot sometimes in multiway pots. Next session ill get to work on playing these hands in a less crazy way. Also ive made myself a note 'bet/FOLD' I know what it means. Stacks you're right on with the KK i barely considered his range, pretty much just gave up with it.

Should I 3bet-shove preflop against a 20-40 bb shortstack with TT/JJ/QQ? There seems to be alot of shorties on ipoker 10nl

Things ill change
1. Stop 3betting TT/JJ so much maybe QQ too
2. Bet/FOLD when reraised with overcards. Think about outs!
3. Think about entire ranges in funny blind vs blind situations limp/donk bets with overcard/flushdraw/straightdraw on the flop

Cheers for taking the time to reply hangchiong and xXStacksXx you have given me alot to think about.

Stacks

02-05-2009, 01:22 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sl4y3r

Should I 3bet-shove preflop against a 20-40 bb shortstack with TT/JJ/QQ? There seems to be alot of shorties on ipoker 10nl

It really depends, but no you likely do not want to just 3bet shove. Not because you aren't ahead of villain or anything like that, but because there are generally going to be other villains in the pot to act. It wouldn't be a good feeling to 3bet shove JJ over a 40bb stacks open only to get called by another 100bb stack who has you crushed.

Also it depends on the villain. If the villain is tight your TT-QQ might not be ahead of his preflop stackoff range. You may want to just call and get it in on safe flops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sl4y3r

Things ill change
1. Stop 3betting TT/JJ so much maybe QQ too
2. Bet/FOLD when reraised with overcards. Think about outs!
3. Think about entire ranges in funny blind vs blind situations limp/donk bets with overcard/flushdraw/straightdraw on the flop

1) As I stated I rarely 3bet TT, JJ in a FR game. Especially without reads. QQ is one of those hands that can be played profitably by either 3betting for value or calling preflop. You want to consider a few things to determine which is the most profitable at the time. If villain is opening with a tighter range (early position, just tight in general, etc), then you likely want to call and play against his looser opening range, rather than 3bet and tighten his range even more (to a range you don't fair wonderful against).

Or you can 3bet profitablye if you believe villain will either call or 4bet with enough worse hands to be profitable.

2) ISF talks about bet/folding being one of the best things a micro/low stakes grinder can do. The reason being is the majority of micro/low stakes villains major leaks are going to involve calling too often. That is, the majority of villains are going to call with a wider range of hands than they are going to bet or raise with. Therefore, when you bet/fold you can get thinner value, and when you are raised you can be relatively sure (without reads) that villain isn't doing it all that thinly and you are generally behind unless you have a relatively strong hand.

3) I just want to make a note here about ranges. You ALWAYS want to consider not only villains range, but also your range. For instance, when deciding to bluff in a particular spot, you want to pick a range of hands that will have the best equity with called to bluff with. For example: You feel villain cbets too often. So you decide bluff raising should be really profitable against villain. The flop is Jh7h4c. Villain cbets as usual. Say you have 33 this time. Well, sure it might be profitable to bluff raise with 33 here. However, you would much rather bluff raise with a hand like AQ [overcards], or a backdoor straight or flush draw. The reason being is if villain calls your raise your 33 likely has very little equity (two outs). However, a hand like AQ has upward of 6 outs.

Just some more things to think about.

Renton

02-05-2009, 02:24 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

1: absolutely fine

2: flop fine, wtf are you doing on the turn, call or fold to his bet, raising is not smart

3: call

Renton

02-05-2009, 02:24 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

stacks, 3-betting jj btn vs co vs a probable donk is mandatory

poker_pup

02-06-2009, 12:58 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 130

Hand 1: I would have played it the same way, but it looks like you were beat with an overpair.

Hand 2: Looks like you're beat on the flop, I'd fold to the reraise.

Hand 3: Oh, I'd don't know. Maybe call or reraise to $1 just to see if Villian was serious. If he's got anything less than an Ace, he'd likely fold to a raise or check the turn.

Just my noob opinion. Use it at your own risk.

Stacks

02-06-2009, 01:20 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_pup

Hand 3: Oh, I'd don't know. Maybe call or reraise to $1 just to see if Villian was serious. If he's got anything less than an Ace, he'd likely fold to a raise or check the turn.

Raising the flop is bad. Can you tell me why?

poker_pup

02-06-2009, 01:53 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 130

No actually, I'm a clueless noob. Sounded like a good idea to me.

What do you think?

Stacks

02-06-2009, 02:05 AM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Part of your reasoning was "just to see if he was serious". And that if he has less than an ace he is likely to fold. Well I agree that if he has less than a pair of aces he is likely to fold. But the problem is here with KK you beat everything that is less than a pair of Aces. So you don't want him folding the hands that you do beat. However, if you raise and he calls you have pretty much manipulated villains range of possible hands to hands that you are now behind (because he folds out the hands you beat). But if you were to just call then on the turn he still has hands that you beat in his range.

To look at it in the simple and traditional sense. A bet or raise should get worse hands to call (so you get value) or get better hands to fold (as a bluff). Well here you fold out the worse hands (less than a pair of aces), and you get called when you are behind.

Knytestorme

02-06-2009, 02:07 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

Hand 3: call flop, see if he double-barrels on turn and play back hard on any spade or K.

Raising the flop here puts us in a bad spot no matter what villain does apart from fold.

If he calls does he have A with weak kicker or does he have flush draw...if he puts presure on us again on the turn we're in the same boat we are now except now a spade leaves us in more doubt and if he raises then we are pot committed due to stack size.

His 1/2 psb on the flop does look weird and like he's looking to 3-bet shove on us here so let's wait for turn and see what develops imo.

poker_pup

02-06-2009, 02:12 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 130

Thanks Stacks -- i get it now.

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