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I assume these things just happen...or is it my fault?

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NoSocksLLC

04-20-2006, 05:48 PM Post subject: I assume these things just happen...or is it my fault?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 65

Full Tilt Poker Game #580709288: Table Tara - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:44:06 ET - 2006/04/20
Seat 1: MA OakTree ($2.45)
Seat 2: suggs ($4.25)
Seat 3: cheese17 ($9.85)
Seat 4: jankiekidd ($9.75)
Seat 5: millz541 ($3.70)
Seat 6: Dole40 ($18.50)
Seat 7: srgoertz ($5.50)
Seat 8: dub_dub37 ($10)
Seat 9: thepurplegang12 ($1.95)
jankiekidd posts the small blind of $0.05
millz541 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cheese17 [As Qc]
Dole40 folds
srgoertz folds
dub_dub37 folds
thepurplegang12 folds
MA OakTree folds
suggs folds
cheese17 raises to $0.35
jankiekidd folds
millz541 calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Jh 7h Ah]
millz541 checks
cheese17 bets $0.65
millz541 calls $0.65
*** TURN *** [Jh 7h Ah] [5d]
millz541 checks
cheese17 bets $2.25
millz541 raises to $2.70, and is all in
cheese17 calls $0.45
millz541 shows [2h Kh]
cheese17 shows [As Qc]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 7h Ah 5d] [6h]
millz541 shows a flush, Ace high
cheese17 shows a pair of Aces
millz541 wins the pot ($6.75) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.45 | Rake $0.70
Board: [Jh 7h Ah 5d 6h]
Seat 1: MA OakTree didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: suggs didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cheese17 (button) showed [As Qc] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: jankiekidd (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: millz541 (big blind) showed [2h Kh] and won ($6.75) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: Dole40 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: srgoertz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: dub_dub37 didn't bet (folded)

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Best,
EW

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NoSocksLLC

04-20-2006, 05:49 PM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 65

I guess my problem here was the reraise? Honestly, I pretty much considered it a call because of his short stack. Was this a no-no?

Best,
EW

chardrian

04-20-2006, 05:53 PM

#3 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

By the turn raise you had to call.

Just be glad he doesn't follow the advice on here that you should always keep (at least close to) the maximum buy-in.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

jyms

04-20-2006, 05:56 PM

#4 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Lot's of crap players will call PF with paint or suited, he had both. He flopped a flush. You couldn't get him of that with a grenade. You should have slowed down after the flop was a flush board, Never mind a four card flush board at the river. If I don't have a flush here with a high heart, I fold it.

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andy-akb

04-20-2006, 05:58 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Your preflop raise was fairly small, a 3.5xbb raise in the microstakes tables doesnt do anything really, at $10nl my standard preflop raise was $0.50. The flop is fine, I would have just bet the pot and hoped the take it down there. With a call on that flop its tough to judge where you stand, I can see arguments for checking behind on the turn and for firing another bet. On the turn the pot is about $2 and you overbet it for $2.25 when your opponent only has $2.70, you have to call if he pushes. Given the stack sizes I think I would check behind on the turn, because with any reasonable bet on the turn you will have to call a push, and your hand isnt that strong, especially with this board. With a check behind I would ideally want to again check behind on the river unless it was another ace or a non heart queen, with a heart on the river I would fold to a push. So did he get lucky? Yes, but you paid him off when I think it could have been avoided.

jyms

04-20-2006, 07:02 PM

#6 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Quote:

The flop is fine, I would have just bet the pot and hoped the take it down there.

Ok I'm the new guy and need to know if I'm missing something since I play at these stakes as well. He had the nut flush, holding the Kh with the Ah on board. Is there something I can do to get guys of drawing hands wiht a 4 flush, never mind a nut flush on the flop. I'm not being a smart ass just a little lost.

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jackvance

04-20-2006, 07:10 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

]Ok I'm the new guy and need to know if I'm missing something since I play at these stakes as well. He had the nut flush, holding the Kh with the Ah on board. Is there something I can do to get guys of drawing hands wiht a 4 flush, never mind a nut flush on the flop. I'm not being a smart ass just a little lost.

If you raise hard enough, the guys that still call there with their draws are the ones that - in the long run - make you a winning player.

jyms

04-20-2006, 07:22 PM

#8 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

But this hand inparticular he had flopped the flush and that's where the confusion lies. I'm questioning this hand, I think as the topic states, it was his fault, wasn't it??

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jackvance

04-20-2006, 07:32 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

I don't see any mistakes.. He bet the flop as he should, his opp called, possible flush draw, no extra heart on the turn, so he bet harder to protect his hand against another draw. He just had the misfortune his opp had already flopped the flush. More often than not though, they won't, so he did the right thing imo.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

NoSocksLLC

04-20-2006, 07:37 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 65

Here's a new one. And -- here's the hand in Poker Stove.

76,958,699 games 60.537 secs 1,271,267 games/sec

Board: Ac Ah Tc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 74.4460 % 74.45% 00.00% { As3s }
Hand 2: 25.5540 % 25.55% 00.00% { Kc7c }

Full Tilt Poker Game #580863890: Table Meadows - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:21:33 ET - 2006/04/20
Seat 1: RacerX40 ($1.70)
Seat 2: Sam Black ($3.20)
Seat 3: all6sand7s ($9.90)
Seat 4: alkfjslk ($2.80)
Seat 5: NoSocksLLC ($15.25)
Seat 6: speer111 ($5)
Seat 7: tamino71 ($4)
Seat 8: pokerdove72 ($3.40)
Seat 9: speedlimit55 ($9.65)
pokerdove72 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NoSocksLLC [As 3s]
speedlimit55 folds
RacerX40 calls $0.10
Sam Black folds
all6sand7s folds
alkfjslk calls $0.10
NoSocksLLC calls $0.10
speer111 calls $0.10
pokerdove72 checks
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ah Tc]
pokerdove72 checks
RacerX40 bets $0.10
alkfjslk folds
NoSocksLLC calls $0.10
speer111 folds
pokerdove72 calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [Ac Ah Tc] [5c]
pokerdove72 checks
RacerX40 checks
NoSocksLLC bets $3.20
pokerdove72 calls $3.20, and is all in
RacerX40 folds
NoSocksLLC shows [As 3s]
pokerdove72 shows [7c Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Ac Ah Tc 5c] [6c]
NoSocksLLC shows three of a kind, Aces
pokerdove72 shows a flush, Ace high
pokerdove72 wins the pot ($6.50) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.20 | Rake $0.70
Board: [Ac Ah Tc 5c 6c]
Seat 1: RacerX40 folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Sam Black didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: all6sand7s didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: alkfjslk folded on the Flop
Seat 5: NoSocksLLC showed [As 3s] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 6: speer111 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: tamino71 (small blind) is sitting out
Seat 8: pokerdove72 (big blind) showed [7c Kc] and won ($6.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 9: speedlimit55 didn't bet (folded)

Now, I really screwed the pooch on this one. But, my logic was getting someone off a 4-card flush draw. Obviously, it didn't work because someone already had the nut flush, and about 98/100 the winning hand. Now -- this was just flat out stupid, but, how do I get people off?

Let's say I was holding AK, which gives me, in all likelihood, the best hand. So, the flop comes, and someone can be drawing to four clubs. What do you do?

Best,
EW

andy-akb

04-20-2006, 07:48 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

We dont know he has the flush though, we do know that we have TPGK on a suited board and want to take the pot down now so that hands with a big h dont stay in trying to catch the flush, we do this by betting the pot, his bet was very close to the pot so its a small difference. Again though, I do not like the turn play that much, I dont hate it but I think checking behind is the best play. You dont have an amazing hand and any bet and you will essentially have to call a push, you dont want to build a big pot with a small hand that is pretty easily beat.

andy-akb

04-20-2006, 07:58 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSocksLLC

Board: Ac Ah Tc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 74.4460 % 74.45% 00.00% { As3s }
Hand 2: 25.5540 % 25.55% 00.00% { Kc7c }

Full Tilt Poker Game #580863890: Table Meadows - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:21:33 ET - 2006/04/20
Seat 1: RacerX40 ($1.70)
Seat 2: Sam Black ($3.20)
Seat 3: all6sand7s ($9.90)
Seat 4: alkfjslk ($2.80)
Seat 5: NoSocksLLC ($15.25)
Seat 6: speer111 ($5)
Seat 7: tamino71 ($4)
Seat 8: pokerdove72 ($3.40)
Seat 9: speedlimit55 ($9.65)
pokerdove72 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NoSocksLLC [As 3s]
speedlimit55 folds
RacerX40 calls $0.10
Sam Black folds
all6sand7s folds
alkfjslk calls $0.10
NoSocksLLC calls $0.10
speer111 calls $0.10
pokerdove72 checks

I dont particularly like playing A-rag-suited, exactly because of reasons like this. To play hands like this you have to be confident in your postflop play to be able to get away from the scond best hand, otherwise you shouldnt be playing these hands.

Quote:

*** FLOP *** [Ac Ah Tc]
pokerdove72 checks
RacerX40 bets $0.10
alkfjslk folds
NoSocksLLC calls $0.10
speer111 folds
pokerdove72 calls $0.10

There is $0.50 in the pot, you hit trips with no kicker on a board with 2 suited cards, and there is a $.1 bet if you call you are more than giving a flush draw the correct odds to play. Raise here to abour $0.50 so that if they draw to the flush they dont get the odds. You did the calculations with pokerstove, villain has about a 25% chance of winning, so if he has to put in less than 25% of the pot he is getting odds to continue playing. As played he only has to put in about 14%.

Quote:

*** TURN *** [Ac Ah Tc] [5c]
pokerdove72 checks
RacerX40 checks
NoSocksLLC bets $3.20
pokerdove72 calls $3.20, and is all in
RacerX40 folds
NoSocksLLC shows [As 3s]
pokerdove72 shows [7c Kc]

The pot is $0.80 and the flush draw is completed and it is checked to you, you bet 4x the pot. What hand that you have beat is going to call here? If you are going to bet, make it like $0.50-0.75, but not 4x the pot, especially with this card. Check behind here.

Quote:

*** RIVER *** [Ac Ah Tc 5c] [6c]
NoSocksLLC shows three of a kind, Aces
pokerdove72 shows a flush, Ace high
pokerdove72 wins the pot ($6.50) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.20 | Rake $0.70

Has this river come you would have checked behind or folded to a bet. Playing it the way you did, you lost over $3, or 30BB, as I suggested there is a good chance you would have taken it down on the flop, if not you would have only lost $0.60

Quote:

Now, I really screwed the pooch on this one. But, my logic was getting someone off a 4-card flush draw. Obviously, it didn't work because someone already had the nut flush, and about 98/100 the winning hand. Now -- this was just flat out stupid, but, how do I get people off?

Let's say I was holding AK, which gives me, in all likelihood, the best hand. So, the flop comes, and someone can be drawing to four clubs. What do you do?

You have to get somebody off their flush draw on that flop by raising. On that turn if you are trying to get someboyd off a 4 card flush, you have no reason to bet $3.20, $0.50-.75 would be fine. Holding AK I would play it the same way I suggested except I wouldnt be worried about an ace with a higher kicker.

NoSocksLLC

04-20-2006, 08:05 PM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 65

Andy,

I think my biggest problem is not considering my final "goal" for the hand...I mean...what can I really beat with A3 there? Not much, unless I get someone that's REALLY, REALLY stupid...since I really beat nothing that would be seriously played -- besides A2.

So, essentially, I risked $3.20 to take down a pot that was something like 70 cents. That's a whopping 1/5 odds. As a person that bets horses for a living -- I just don't understand why I would do something so f'ing stupid. I obviously have a long way to go.

Best,
EW

biondino

04-21-2006, 10:37 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

I could repeat what you did wrong in that hand, but not only have others done so, but you seem to understand your mistakes. So just think of it as a $4 poker lesson and don't make the same mistake again

(and make sure you apply it to other situation where you either have a very good hand or a very bad hand that looks like a very good hand - as stated above, there are practically no hands that might call your $3.20 bet that you beat, despite your sexy set of aces)

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