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Vinland
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03-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Post subject: I am limping too much...do I need to grow a pair?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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I am playing in full ring 2nl.
Basically I find myself limping too much into pots with cards that have good, but not killer starting value.
For example, I will not open a pot in EP with A9o or KQ suit or offsuit. However, if I am in later position (on or close to button) I will open the pot for a raise if it is folded to me. The problem is at 2nl, its never folded to me. There are usually 2 or 3 limpers in EP - MP and I then limp in behind instead of raising because I am worried about the pot getting too big with my cards that are good but not great. If I wait for great cards, I hardly ever get to play a pot.
Are cards like A9o, KQo good enough to raise with in later position, even though there are 3 ahead of me? Can I assume that in most cases, these limpers are playing such a wide range PF that I am usually ahead and should try to knock one or two out of the pot before the flop comes? If my raise doesn't knock them out, and I end up playing against 3 opponents, I will only catch a flop so many times that on average I am beaten when they do stick around and I have just wasted 6-7 big blinds on my PF raise.
What is the general consensus?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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You need to learn how to isolate limpers and raise like a man while you're at the nano-limits. It's a bad habit to get into. Stop doing it with any type of good hand. Limping behind is okay with hands that play well in multi-way pots. A9o is a fold for me unless I'm opening with it. I raise with KQo from LP in a limped pot just about every time. Think about it, what are they limping with? You're ahead of their range a majority of the time so why not raise, isolate a limper or two, and take them to value to town when you hit a hand.
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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Quote:
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Are cards like A9o, KQo good enough to raise with in later position, even though there are 3 ahead of me? Can I assume that in most cases, these limpers are playing such a wide range PF that I am usually ahead and should try to knock one or two out of the pot before the flop comes?
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Yes, this. Obviously reads are important here, I'd recommend getting the free trial of poker tracker 3 and setting up the HUD. Lots of these guys will be playing 50% of their hands. Go into pokerstove and look at 50% of hands and you'll notice they're playing some garbage hands. Punish them by raising.
If you have KQo and raise 6x bb after 2 limpers, they both call, and flop comes A72 rainbow, then most of the time they will just check it to you, you make a decently sized c-bet and take the pot. This makes you much more than limping and hoping to hit a K or Q. Most of them aren't complete idiots and will give you credit for big cards when you raise.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Let's start from the start. You have told us that the players behind you limp in. Do the players yet to act allow you to limp in, or do they raise you? That's actually the number one consideration here.
And number two is, if you do raise, how do the limpers behind you react to pre-flop raises from you? That's consideration number two.
Consideration three is what hand you have. Notice this. You need to know what the other people are going to do to determine what you want to do. There are situations where it may be correct to fold, limp, or raise, but it is based on what you understand about what the table is communicating to you.
Having said that, in general and subject to your reads, suited connectors play best in multiway pots. Thus, those are the type of hands that you might look to limp in with.
Hands like A9o and KQo play best when you can isolate players. If you can't do that, they play second best when you may get a lot of callers, but they are calling a raise with weak hands. They play bad when they are dominated or there are better hands out there that are seeing the flop.
So, with A9o, you want to figure out what is within the other players' limping range. If it's fairly narrow, you have to worry a bit about this hand, because someone may have you dominated with AT-AQ or even AK. On the other hand, if the players behind you often limp in with Ace-rag, than A9o can be a great hand to raise even against several limpers.
Similarly, KQo is usually a raise in late position, but, again, that depends a little bit on what the players behind you are willing to limp in with.
Thus, the most general level of advice I can give you is that A9o and KQo are both hands that you should be looking to either raise or fold in limped pots, more likely raised, depending on what your reads tell you about what's going on elsewhere on the table. The fact that these hands often miss the flop and you have to end up folding them at some point doesn't matter-- as long as you are getting calls from worse hands and controlling the action with your raise, you are probably making a positive expected value play in the long run.
But neither hand is really a good limping hand.
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TAGurit
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 56
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Originally Posted by Airles™
You need to learn how to isolate limpers and raise like a man while you're at the nano-limits. It's a bad habit to get into. Stop doing it with any type of good hand. Limping behind is okay with hands that play well in multi-way pots. A9o is a fold for me unless I'm opening with it. I raise with KQo from LP in a limped pot just about every time. Think about it, what are they limping with? You're ahead of their range a majority of the time so why not raise, isolate a limper or two, and take them to value to town when you hit a hand.
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i agree with this. you have to isolate with these hands. either you'll take down the pots pf or youll only get 1 or 2 callers which makes your hand that much stonger. not to mention building up the pot for when you hit
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Fold A9o from EP. Never limp KQo, you either want a heads up pot or 3 handed. So just raise a ton. Either they're calling a big raise with trash or they're folding. Either one is fine for your hand. Put in a manly 4xBB + 1BB for each limper from EP.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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I agree, but what if I get A9o near the button with 2 - 3 limpers that opened the pot before me....still fold it? Or put in the raise against the limpers to isolate given that I may be ahead of their range?
These are the hands I get plenty of in later position against limpers that acted before me; A9, KT, KQ etc in later position. If I throw them away, I find myself playing very few hands.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
I agree, but what if I get A9o near the button with 2 - 3 limpers that opened the pot before me....still fold it? Or put in the raise against the limpers to isolate given that I may be ahead of their range?
These are the hands I get plenty of in later position against limpers that acted before me; A9, KT, KQ etc in later position. If I throw them away, I find myself playing very few hands. |
You want to play "very few hands" at the micros and you want to play them forcefully. The fact that you get to the flop with more money in the pot having a much better hand on average is what wins you money long term at those stakes.
Watch some of the microstakes videos here or subscribe to grinderschool.com. At the least read ALL the guides in the beginners and FR digests BEFORE you play another hand.
O
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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You want to play "very few hands" at the micros and you want to play them forcefully. The fact that you get to the flop with more money in the pot having a much better hand on average is what wins you money long term at those stakes.
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I agree with this too. I dont want to play 35% of my hands but if I wait for just the premium cards I wonder if that is too tight. Thats why I am wondering what kind of cards can I raise with in later position when there are limpers in front. If there are 2 -3 limpers in front and if I only get involved with great hole cards, then I will almost never ever play a hand. The high pairs and AK's only come so often.
But with the limpers infront, is a hand like KQo worth a raise knowing that I will be leading much of the time before the flop?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
I agree, but what if I get A9o near the button with 2 - 3 limpers that opened the pot before me....still fold it? Or put in the raise against the limpers to isolate given that I may be ahead of their range?
These are the hands I get plenty of in later position against limpers that acted before me; A9, KT, KQ etc in later position. If I throw them away, I find myself playing very few hands. |
it depends
KQ > A9 in terms of playability
in fact KT > A9 barely
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PlayToWin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 606
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If I throw them away, I find myself playing very few hands.
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This is why people play more tables. So they can play tight and still get to play a decent number of hands. If you can handle more tables, it cuts down on the boredom/frustration level.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
Quote:
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You want to play "very few hands" at the micros and you want to play them forcefully. The fact that you get to the flop with more money in the pot having a much better hand on average is what wins you money long term at those stakes.
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I agree with this too. I dont want to play 35% of my hands but if I wait for just the premium cards I wonder if that is too tight. Thats why I am wondering what kind of cards can I raise with in later position when there are limpers in front. If there are 2 -3 limpers in front and if I only get involved with great hole cards, then I will almost never ever play a hand. The high pairs and AK's only come so often.
But with the limpers infront, is a hand like KQo worth a raise knowing that I will be leading much of the time before the flop? |
Again, you need reads on what the limpers are going to do in response to your raise, as well as what the limping ranges of the limpers are.
Subject to that caveat, yes, often times raising KQo with position on several limpers is an excellent play.
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
You need to learn how to isolate limpers and raise like a man while you're at the nano-limits. It's a bad habit to get into. Stop doing it with any type of good hand. Limping behind is okay with hands that play well in multi-way pots. A9o is a fold for me unless I'm opening with it. I raise with KQo from LP in a limped pot just about every time. Think about it, what are they limping with? You're ahead of their range a majority of the time so why not raise, isolate a limper or two, and take them to value to town when you hit a hand.
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I think you missed a portion of this above statement. Open up your hand range in position with hands that do well in multi-way pots in these spots and you'll be playing more hands. You won't be waiting for AK or big pocket pairs all day. But don't overlimp with hands that player better heads up or 3-way.
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