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i 3b AK in position vs tight reg, and ?

  
 
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daven
Old 05-14-2010, 03:27 AM     Post subject: i 3b AK in position vs tight reg, and ? #1 (permalink)  
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 this is an interesting and all too common spot - so, what is our plan. We threw some ideas around in irc, but blind leading blind etc...
villain seems tightish, but unknown. Something like 14-9 over 100 hands, no post-flop reads

curious on thoughts about flop and turn play

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Villain Tight-Taggish
(I 3bet too small, oops)

Stacks:
UTG ($8.54)
UTG+1 ($8.34)
MP1 ($5.17)
MP2 ($7.94)
CO ($15.66)
BTN ($2.90)
SB ($1.85)
Hero ($5)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 8 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, MP2 raises to $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.27, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, MP2 calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.87, 2 players)
Hero ($3.6)?

<Josh1> 3bet too small
<daven> if we're gonna cbet then smaller is good
<Josh1> smaller?
<daven> 1/2 pot
<Josh1> k
<daven> why?
<Josh1> cause i can cbet smaller and not likely change his folding range?
<daven> now, sizing if you had AA?
<Josh1> i'd bet closer to pot, since i'm getitng a ton of value from QQ,KK?
<daven> interesting
<daven> why not 1/2 pot?
<Josh1> i want more money?
<daven> what is pot size on turn if you 1/2 pot and he calls? vs stack behind?
<surviva1> kiwi
<surviva1> it's been your goddamned turn for like 4 whole minutes
<Josh1> 2.47 pot, 3.97 behind
<daven> are you gonna have any difficulty getting the rest of the money in over two more streets if you have like 1.6 pot behind
<daven> vs his QQ/KK sub-range?
<Josh1> not really
<daven> cool
<daven> is he maybe calling AK/AQ if you bet 1/2 pot
<daven> but folding if you bet bigger?
<Josh1> ...yes
<daven> ok, so, now back to holding AK
<daven> what if he calls flop once you've bet 1/2 pot
<daven> ?
<daven> your plan? his range? etc?
<Josh1> i had no plan at the time
<Josh1> i was hoping he'd fold
<Josh1> he may have raised most better hands though
<daven> not c-called?
<daven> like, most of his range beats A hi once he calls pre, c-call flop?
<daven> so, can you bluff this turn effectively? should you? golden rule of micro-stakes?
<Josh1> betting for value
<Josh1> i don't bluff very much...
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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rpm
Old 05-14-2010, 03:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 i 3bet more OOP but that's not what you posted this hand to hear about. i think when a 14/9 opens then calls a BB 3bet, his range is pretty strong. it's mostly pairs, perhaps 88+, and maybe AJs+, AQo+. for this reason, i like checking this flop, all we gain value from folding out is 88,99. the rest of his range isn't folding and has us beat. or otherwise is two high cards and a gutterball which we beat (ie vs AQ). although, that said, while i was typing this ^^ i just repetitively felt like slapping myself because i think my style of poker has become far too passive lately and my thoughts on this hand possibly reflect that. as played i see nothing to do but c/f the turn. a taggy villain's continuing range after the flop is TT+, AJ (if he's even loose enough to open/call with AJ), none of which is folding and all of which has us crushed. berate my comments as necessary.
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mrchevyceleb
Old 05-14-2010, 08:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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obviously 3bet bigger, to something more like $1 I think is good OOP and not closing the preflop action.

I don't think it's a given to Cbet this flop, it's ok to check this flop, however I am more likely to check if I am in position and checked to, then check behind for pot control. So C-betting is OK, but the board is really wet so when you do C-bet, the sizing needs to be bigger on the flop. I know it's a 3-bet pot so you don't have to cbet as much to get folds on cbet bluffs, but it's wet. And my plan for the hand would be bet/fold, if he flats, give up unless we improve on the turn.

The turn makes the board even wetter, and his range at 14/9 is very strong so just check/fold your AK
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Redgyboy
Old 05-15-2010, 12:05 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Since you have an Ace and a King as blockers in your hands, villain's range might be a little bit more skewed toward QQ, JJ, TT and smaller pairs, and I don't think he would have called a 3 bet with less than AQo. So I think he's range is probably toward sets and two pairs. In this condition I would c-bet to see where I stand, and then fold if called.
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kiwiMark
Old 05-15-2010, 12:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
<surviva1> kiwi
<surviva1> it's been your goddamned turn for like 4 whole minutes
I <3 you
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Donachello
Old 05-15-2010, 02:20 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I think you guys are giving him way too tight of a range. Being in position vs that small of a 3bet his range is much larger than you all think preflop. As played I'd say some of the time I check/f this turn and some of the time I'd bet around 1.40 and fold to a raise. Flop is fine.

PS. I like a bigger 3bet preflop just because we are OOP. Though I do understand making it smaller to keep his range wider. But why not just call then if that is your goal?
[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?
 
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surviva316
Old 05-15-2010, 05:08 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 reads on MP1 and reads on how MP2 continues to 3b's plz
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surviva316
Old 05-15-2010, 05:10 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 oh and rofl at the risk-a-ments
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I just wanted to share singing vaginas.
 
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JR9477
Old 05-15-2010, 07:31 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Ok, really quick (Have a graduation party to go to)

MP2/Villain- Was more like 25/9 (~50Hands) at the time, No history with 3betting. (Sorry for the wrong info)
MP1-Unknown player

Yes, I 3bet too small (stuff happens), I doubt he's folding most of his pf raising range because of this. I believe there's some value in cbetting as he may have continued with a good amount of PP's.

At the time I was thinking his range to be 66+,AQs,AK, he may 4bet with AA,KK.
When I cbet the flop he's likely to fold any missed PP's in his range.
He may/may not call with AK/AQs.
QQ+ he's probably raising on the flop. TT/JJ too (slowplaying them is a possibility too)
(Josh)
 
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surviva316
Old 05-15-2010, 07:46 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 oh well then obv a snap 3b pre if he's a 25/9.

i don't really get this thread. if you're aware of why you cbet the flop, then it doesn't seem like a tough decision as to whether or not we should continue on the friggin 8 of spades. if we just bet the flop because cbetting's fun, then i can see how we might be lost

regardless of why you're cbetting the flop, though, the large sizing doesn't make sense with our hand on this board with these stack sizes
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JR9477
Old 05-15-2010, 08:24 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Turn I'm thinking I'm up against AK/AQs and TT+. Is it better then to bet the turn again(1/2 Pot?) and make him fold out AK/AQs? I was thinking that it would be better to just try to check to get a showdown.
If I bet the turn and he calls, what do you think is best?

Yep, flop bet is too big for sure.
(Josh)
 
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surviva316
Old 05-15-2010, 09:10 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 nothing in your reads makes me discount smaller PP's and KQ.

that being said, why would we bet if his range is TT+ and AK/AQ? he doesn't seem like an aggressive player and he's probably trying to get showdown with those hands too
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JR9477
Old 05-16-2010, 01:13 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "continue".
(Josh)
 
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surviva316
Old 05-16-2010, 10:11 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 my point of my last post is that there is no need to turn our hand into a bluff in order to fold out hands we beat. if his range is TT+/AK/AQ, then it seems like a very easy c/f ('cause i expect him to check back AK/AQ most the time)
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ljove
Old 05-16-2010, 10:30 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Check fold you have just AK here
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surviva316
Old 05-17-2010, 06:50 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
i don't really get this thread. if you're aware of why you cbet the flop, then it doesn't seem like a tough decision as to whether or not we should continue on the friggin 8 of spades. if we just bet the flop because cbetting's fun, then i can see how we might be lost
lemme clarify this comment because it seems to have served as a thread killer. i think this hand is a sufficiently interesting spot, but i said "i don't get this thread" because there's no reason that we should not know what we're doing on the turn.

if we know what the point of our flop cbet was and put him on a continuing range BEFORE we bet, then we should never be lost here. if we put him on the range that Josh put him on (TT+, AQ+), then, as i replied to him, c/f'ing is a pretty obvious answer, assuming this passive villain isn't going to bet AQ+ very often.

if we put a lot of weaker made hands that have us beat, yet are likely to fold to multiple barrels (in this case, 22-99), then betting exactly one street is a retarded line to take...like really retarded. our options are to either bet the flop and barrel the vast majority of turns (a T isn't an awesome card to barrel and a J is an out against most of his range), or to not bother at all with bluffing (in other words, don't cbet).

if we put a lot of hands we beat in his continuing range + we have a lot of outs against the hands that have us beat (in other words, we have <50% equity), and bet the flop for value, or we just bet because we had a ton of equity and betting seemed much better than checking, then we should fiddle with stove and see how the 8 of spades effects our equity.

if we cbet the flop because screw villain we have AK and ZOMG a GSSD too, and cbetting is ldo so much fun, then you're not doing it right

that's what i meant by this little paragraph
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JR9477
Old 05-19-2010, 07:14 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Thank you for clarifying.

When I've 3bet, I've never considered their VPIP when considering their 3bet calling range. I assume I should start doing this?

Kinda funny you mentioned earlier that you didn't discount Low PP's/KQ(He had KQo). That threw me off even more so, as I hadn't really considered it as a part of his range.
(Josh)
 
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rpm
Old 05-20-2010, 03:53 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 thanks for that surviva. it all seems so easy and logical once it's explained but so elusive beforehand. i think a 25/9 is opening and calling 3bets with far wider than a 14/8 or whatever we originally thought our villain was, and as such, i think cbetting with intentions of 2barreling is better because his flop calling range is weaker and more likely to include pairs lower than 99 (especially because KK+ 4bets pre most of the time). although i think the 8 helps villain's range far more than it does ours (88 got there, 99 now cant fold), and i may be reluctant to fire the turn because i'm a fish at ranges and 2 barreling OOP against 25/8's in 3b pots with ace high is kind of scary when you're a fish at ranges.
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Fnord
Old 05-20-2010, 05:36 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redgyboy View Post
I don't think he would have called a 3 bet with less than AQo.
Unless this an opponent specific read, this isn't true for just about any game I've ever played in.

The smallish flop c-bet keeps his range good and wide if we choose to double barrel here and wins the most against common newbie lines with hands like AK/AQ/JJ/TT here that won't commit but also can be stubborn for that first bet because they know you'll fire with anything on the flop.
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