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How you shouldn't play KK or AA - basic lesson.

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Borax

05-22-2005, 03:53 PM Post subject: How you shouldn't play KK or AA - basic lesson.

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Norway

Posts: 584

I am posting this as a lesson of how you shouldn't play a high pair.
I knew he had hit when he reraised the flop, but for some strange reason I kept playing. Feel free to tell me how stupid my play was, so maybe I will remember next time

Read on player CO: very tight

0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player

Dealt to Borax in MP2

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
SB : Posts small blind 0.25
BB : Posts big blind 0.50
UTG : Calls for 0.50
UTG+1 : Folds
UTG+2 : Calls for 0.50
MP1 : Folds
Borax : Raises for 2.00
MP3 : Folds
CO : Calls for 2.00
Button : Folds
SB : Folds
BB : Folds
UTG : Calls for 1.50
UTG+2 : Folds
------------------
Flop

------------------
UTG : Checks
Borax : Bets 6.00
CO : Raises for 12.00
UTG : Folds
Borax : Calls for 6.00
------------------
Turn

------------------
Borax : Bets 15.00
CO : Went all-in 35.60
Borax : Calls for 20.60
------------------
River

------------------
Showdown
------------------
Borax

- Two Pair
CO

- Fullhouse
------------------
Result
------------------
Borax Showed Cards
CO Showed Cards (Winning) 99.45
------------------

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homerdash

05-22-2005, 04:30 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Fairfax, VA (and Stars)

Posts: 212

Everything up to and including the flop is fine. The turn is where you have some troubles. What hands are you beating here? QQ just made a set, AA still has you w0rked, unless he's straight bluffing with unimproved AK or thinks you have AK and his JJ is good.

The point is, you say he's a tight player so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has something. And as I was saying above, his something is probably better than your KK when you get to the turn.

Eric

05-22-2005, 06:14 PM

#3 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: on my laptop

Posts: 1,782

The pre-flop raise of only 3X the big blind is kind of small but he's probably calling with TT anyways. The flop is kind of scary because someone holding 89 already has a straight.

Once the board pairs on the river there are all kinds of potential problems including 4 of a kind.

Borax

05-23-2005, 10:57 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Norway

Posts: 584

It's a little hard to explain my read and stupid play on this hand. But the point is that this very tight guy would have reraised me preflop with AA or QQ so I'm pretty sure he holds a pocket pair or AK after the flop. Then he raises my bet on the flop making me 90% sure he has hit his set. What can I say, I just knew it. I am planning my escape when the Q comes on the turn and I decide to try to bluff him for QQ, which is stupid since he wouldn't fold his set anyway. I then even call his all in, knowing I am beat. BAD BAD play!

journey075

05-23-2005, 07:48 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 725

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

ive never heard anyone actually consider their opponent having quads. i love board pairs because it allows for a scary board with a lot less chance of your opp holding any board card (JJ6 flop only has 5 outs for a pair/trips instead of the usual 9).

if you ask me, on the surface of this hand alone it wasnt a terrible play by the river. a set is usually hard to detect with a PF raise thsi small. if he has 2 pair (unless he just housed) you just beat him. id be worried about the straight more than anything, but i certainly wouldnt rush to put all my chips in on the turn. if the turn was checked and you did the same on the river, i wouldnt consider it a bad play really.

Element187

05-23-2005, 09:52 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

i dont like the play... i make the majority of my profits with pocket 10's and lower and hitting my set against AA or KK... fold the KK preflop ... j/k

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

wolfofruby

05-25-2005, 08:35 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element187

i dont like the play... i make the majority of my profits with pocket 10's and lower and hitting my set against AA or KK... fold the KK preflop ... j/k

I think i would have made a smaller bet on the turn ($6) and fold to the raise.
fold KK on the flop after a raise against a tight player ? Hard one, but with a very tight player, it's not impossible, though the raise is not big.

Element 187, you fold KK preflop ? So you prefer playing TT than KK ?

arkana

05-25-2005, 09:05 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 1,109

j/k = just kidding?

twosevoff

05-25-2005, 07:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 526

You went against your read with predictably disastarous consequences. Stick with your instincts; if your read on this guy is that he's very tight, it should be a relatively easy check-fold on the turn.

Element187

05-26-2005, 05:47 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkana

j/k = just kidding?

its nice to know some people pay attention.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

ChezJ

05-26-2005, 08:44 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

i think a bigger pre flop bet was called for given the number of limpers and the size of the pot. also, if you raised a more substantial amount and got called, then it would be easier for you to give your opponent credit for a stronger holding like TT (which is exactly what i put him on before i saw the answer).

as for putting an opponent on quads, i have definitely done this when i had JJ and the board was JTXTX. the guy had re-raised pre flop and capped every street against me. on the river i just called, fearing the inevitable TT, because no other raising hand made sense to me. it turns out he had ATs, phew...

ChezJ

ChezJ

05-27-2005, 01:53 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

fuck, the same exact thing just happened to me. except i did raise more pre flop ($3) and got heads up vs the SB. flop came 379r, i bet $5, he raised $10, and i moved in, putting him on A9s/TT/JJ/QQ. he had cold called me with 77. argh!!!!!!!!!!!

BobbySalami

05-27-2005, 02:09 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Limbo

Posts: 433

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

That is a bit much to call with 77......but with those little pockets the Implied odds are Ginormous if you hit the set..........

1rainbow

06-01-2005, 04:17 PM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Indiana

Posts: 27

i play AA & KK all in most times depends on the table stakes & what my position in $ is

RESPECT #1

Alibi

06-09-2005, 10:22 AM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: St. Paul or DC

Posts: 449

Alibi is an unknown quantity at this point

what?

TrapperAB: you know, I really should have named myself after the mandibles of a homeless person

bdawg56kg

06-11-2005, 12:56 AM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Honolulu

Posts: 1,201

No, this is how you shouldn't play AA. I guess position really is more important than cards.

PokerStars Game #1873332970: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/06/10 - 20:46:58 (ET)
Table 'Piazzia' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: windswept ($19.50 in chips)
Seat 3: vangboyz ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 4: tlh22 ($25.70 in chips)
Seat 5: dtrivett ($35.15 in chips)
Seat 6: babycarrot ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: ChunRich ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 8: bdawg56kg ($84.75 in chips)
Seat 9: truckrp97 ($18.25 in chips)
ChunRich: posts small blind $0.25
bdawg56kg: posts big blind $0.50
Perfectset: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bdawg56kg [8s Qd]
truckrp97: folds
windswept: folds
vangboyz: folds
tlh22: folds
dtrivett: folds
babycarrot: folds
ChunRich: calls $0.25
bdawg56kg: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c Jc 5d]
ChunRich: checks
bdawg56kg: checks
*** TURN *** [8c Jc 5d] [7h]
ChunRich: checks
bdawg56kg: checks
*** RIVER *** [8c Jc 5d 7h] [4d]
ChunRich: checks
bdawg56kg: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChunRich: shows [Ac Ad] (a pair of Aces)
bdawg56kg: mucks hand
ChunRich collected $0.95 from pot
bdawg56kg said, "??????"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1 | Rake $0.05
Board [8c Jc 5d 7h 4d]
Seat 2: windswept folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: vangboyz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: tlh22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dtrivett folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: babycarrot (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ChunRich (small blind) showed [Ac Ad] and won ($0.95) with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: bdawg56kg (big blind) mucked [8s Qd]
Seat 9: truckrp97 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

bobmarlon

06-11-2005, 07:20 AM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 14

Borax all the signs in that situation point to play cautiously or fold.

The straight draw on flop should cooled you off. Also there was a chance for a flush draw which you couldnt hit.

And when the set came down. That is scary.

dstir2

06-12-2005, 07:18 AM

#18 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Lawrence, KS

Posts: 144

i like to avoid this by raising the kk higher (from 6-10 BB), i like to send a message to people that i have a higher pocket pair. u never know who might have qq,jj, or even tt who might re-raise you foolishly. this large raise makes them pay for the flop, which is what u want. I like playing kk agressive, have two callers, have an all rags flop, and then take it to them. while this doesn't happen most of the time, i think this approach is most comfortable to play. plus, there are fish who dont pay attention to raise value and insist on staying in the hand when they have literally no chance. plus, if you lose these hands off of bad play and/or not being agressive enough, then you can go on tilt. stay agressive.

Cocco_Bill

06-12-2005, 09:56 AM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 1,254

Here's some terrible advice I read here. You would do best to ignore it...

Quote:

The straight draw on flop should cooled you off. Also there was a chance for a flush draw which you couldnt hit.

Quote:

i like to avoid this by raising the kk higher (from 6-10 BB), i like to send a message to people that i have a higher pocket pair.

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How you shouldn't play KK or AA - basic lesson.

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