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Borax
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03-04-2005, 07:46 AM
Post subject: How would you play this flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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0.25/0.5$ NL, 50$ buy in, 10 players
 How would you play this hand after seeing the flop
Hand 1:
Dealt to Borax (J 4 ) in SB
only two callers for 0.50$
Borax calls (  yes I know many of u would fold here, but anyway)
BB checks
FLOP (69J )
First player bets 1.5$
Second player folds
Borax calls
BB folded
TURN (9 )
First player bets 5$
Borax calls
RIVER (9)
First player checks
Borax bets 10$
First player raises to 18.5$ and is all in
Borax calls
First player shows (T9) Four of a kind 9's
Borax shows (J4) A full house 9's full of J's
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TopThis
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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why did you bet $10 after he checked the river?
did he look like a man beaten by jacks?
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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When he checked after the third 9 came up I should have checked him out I think, but I thought that he could actually be holding a set with (66) and then I went for it. I didn't have a good read on him. Now I have though...
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Mony B
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 192
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i know you stated this before but fold preflop, if you are going to change gears make it so you could hit a good hand to take it down with. J4o is not one of those hands, after the flop raise when he bets, since you have so much faith in this hand bet back at him and find out where you are, i would rather loose a bet,raise, and a call on the turn then most of my stack.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Tough break. I would check the river but still, a boat is hard to fold. You have to assume if somebody limped they don't have a higher PP than Jacks. So, the only hand you are scard of is 9x, which he had.
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Waggho
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 260
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The flop situation is the very reason you should fold J4o preflop. So, you hit a jack on the flop, then what? With a good kicker, you have a hand to protect, to reraise with and get the drawers out. But with a weak kicker, you are forced to be weak, so you play it like most people would play a draw. It´s just that you don´t have a draw. And while the cards fall, somebody else hits his draw, like in this situation, and because you don´t have a good enough hand to raise with, you´ll never know where you stand. It just sucks. You get the worst out of two worlds: The weak betting of the draw and the draw fear from the TPTK. It just sucks. Fold it preflop!
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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A clear fold on the flop.
Which gets back to the point that you already know.... You don't play J4 because when your J hits you can't be confident in your kicker.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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I won't jump on the "Fold preflop bandwagon"... you already know that's the right move.
I might have reraised on the flop. Sure, it costs you some money now, but if he keeps playing with you, I think it makes your laydown easier on the Turn. Your top pair is best here. He's either got a J or a 9 if he can call, or a set. In ANY of these situations, you're screwed when that second 9 hits, and can lay down.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Check the river. Worse hands are folding, better hands are calling.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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Yep, I should have checked the river. That was a big mistake.
Folding preflop is as I said from the beginning  my normal play here, but I like to play a few (very few  ) trash hands with only a few callers for BB, most often if I'm SB. If I flop two pair I usually bring home a nice stack in those situations. Got this tip from an aricle link on this forum actually and I use it sometimes also to confuse oponents. The reason I called on the flop here was that his bet was small and I wanted to see another card for that prize. With the read I know have on this guy I would have folded to his first bet.
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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Heres how i would play it:
fold preflop
But if you are gonna play i would raise on the flop, fold if he reraised. If he cold called then i would check to him and see what he does on the turn like you did, but i think its either reraise or fold. Calling wont give you any information. On the river, obviously check.
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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By the way TopThis, im pretty sure you just quoted rounders there.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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I will take a different approach on this hand. Please feel free to critique this. I think the river was played nicely. The check by the first guy was very sneaky and IMO very very tough to do sitting on the nuts in first position. Most players will make a callable bet to maximize thier payoff, rather than risking a free showdown. That being said, there is no reason to think that your hand is not good. You can pretty much rule out a higher pocket pair based on the betting, and like I said it is very difficult to put your opponent on a 9 since he checked the river to you. I would put him on a hand like 66 that went from very strong to crap.
(Another way to look at this is your opponent probably put you on a hand like QT or 78 that missed its draw, and felt like any river bet was going to make you fold and the best way to get more money out of you would be to check and let you take a stab at the pot, then come over the top.)
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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Bdawg heres my response to your post:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Check the river. Worse hands are folding, better hands are calling.
-'rilla
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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preflop: consider it ignored
flop: i would fold here. think about it, you call his 1.5 dollar bet, you're waiting for what? only thing that improves your hand is a J or a 4, and there's only a 10% chance per card of one coming. I'd raise here solidly, and if its called check it down, if you're reraised fold.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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redih
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Cumberland, Maryland
Posts: 53
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Quote:
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The reason I called on the flop here was that his bet was small and I wanted to see another card for that prize. With the read I know have on this guy I would have folded to his first bet.
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You had him beat on the flop, why would you have folded? Don't fold because you think he has a pp, fold because you know he has you beat. Your read would've been completely wrong because you think he has 66. So you're saying fold because you think he bet on the flop, when reality he just threw a bet in to take it down there and make u think he has a J, or he thinks his 9's = best...which they weren't on the flop.
His 9's hit, his stack isn't big, so calling the $5 on the turn = me think jack or 9. More than likely beat. I don't see how you get low pp with a bet out on the flop. I'm thinking top pair or middle pair.
1. fold pre-flop duh
2. fold flop not because of set, but because wtf u gonna do with a 4 kicker? Hope he has a 3/2? I fold because I think I am outkicked, not because of set. He would've checked set (as he did turn/river). That 1.5 bet was a scare u out of pot bet and hope u didn't have jack. If I had JQ- AJ I would've re-raised for 5. If I get a call and that 9 hits, and he turns to check/call, I do the same.
3. Check, he wouldn't have called a $5 bet without a jack or a 9 on the turn, so why bet if you either have the same hand or you are beat? What were u expecting, to up the pot and split it so pp gets more rake?
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Trust your parachute.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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Thanks guys, I'm really learning something from this discussion 
Quote:
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3. Check, he wouldn't have called a $5 bet without a jack or a 9 on the turn, so why bet if you either have the same hand or you are beat? What were u expecting, to up the pot and split it so pp gets more rake?
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I called him for 5$, not the other way around, but I get your point.
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fkn2pt
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Waggho
The flop situation is the very reason you should fold J4o preflop. So, you hit a jack on the flop, then what? With a good kicker, you have a hand to protect, to reraise with and get the drawers out. But with a weak kicker, you are forced to be weak, so you play it like most people would play a draw. It´s just that you don´t have a draw. And while the cards fall, somebody else hits his draw, like in this situation, and because you don´t have a good enough hand to raise with, you´ll never know where you stand. It just sucks. You get the worst out of two worlds: The weak betting of the draw and the draw fear from the TPTK. It just sucks. Fold it preflop!
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sometimes i find that playing J or Q raggy hands in late position or from the blinds can be profitable, sometimes because if you flop two pair someone may have KJ, JQ, KQ or something like that if there hasn't been a preflop raise. they will then bet it out and you can get them to lose their stack
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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fkn2pt,
You said sometimes, something, if, and may have, which are all not good reasons for making a decision.
What is a good reason for playing these hands is to steal blinds and use position to win hands. They can be very deceptive as you explained, but rarely and only if you catch, so i don't entirely disagree with you.
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"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
preflop: consider it ignored
flop: i would fold here. think about it, you call his 1.5 dollar bet, you're waiting for what? only thing that improves your hand is a J or a 4, and there's only a 10% chance per card of one coming. |
J on the turn does not improve his hand if he is worried about his kicker. he is drawing to two 4's. without 22:1, he cannot call that flop bet.
ChezJ
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