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How to play flop corectly?

  
 
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didy
Old 11-22-2007, 09:50 AM     Post subject: How to play flop corectly? #1 (permalink)  
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I think that the most difficult part of game is flop + turn...can You help me with that.
I was playing NL full ring for 2 years, but I am really confused with short handed. I know that I should bet more often, and that High cards have more value, but what is best "formula" for flop play.
Are there some books regarding short handed NL??
As I am studying math I would like to see some math calculations about flop turn play if that s possible to find
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$cumbag
Old 11-22-2007, 04:49 PM #2 (permalink)  

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This depands on board, holding cards and opponents range.
Post examples and you'll get help.
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 11-22-2007, 05:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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cbet in position except vs calling stations. c-bet oop on good board texture ( when the flop hit your range real hard if your opponenets a good thinker, if hes not when it missed his range). The turn gets a little more tricky. Bet with made hands unless you are attempting to keep the flop small or you are attempting to induce a bluff on the triver.


profit.
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didy
Old 11-23-2007, 09:19 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Do You know some good books or on line articles about post flop play.....from betting patterns, how to play vs calling stations, loose players...etc.

Please help, tnx
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daven
Old 11-23-2007, 09:53 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Ash256
Old 11-23-2007, 01:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Postflop for me is something that came more from experience than anything else.

Some important concepts:

- Pot control
- The 4/2 rule
- Equity
- Implied odds
- Ranges

Most of these are covered in PNL (Professional No Limit Holdem Volume 1)
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didy
Old 11-25-2007, 10:40 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Tnx for help

What is 4/2 rule....
next question, for example if u have ability to know 3 stats from all the other players at 100 NL , what would u choose?
( what is the most important at this level, % of flop seen, VPIP, PFR , FAF,TAF ? ) and how to play against those stats, how to use them properly ( I think that u discoused about it on this forum, but I canˇt find it, so help )

Tnx ahead
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didy
Old 11-26-2007, 12:22 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Hello.
Is there anybody in there
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone...

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mixchange
Old 11-26-2007, 01:49 PM #9 (permalink)  
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someone move this to beginner forum

basically double barell a lot with drawing hands and raise a lot with sets, pocket pairs, dont slowplay, YAY!
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didy
Old 11-26-2007, 09:15 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
someone move this to beginner forum

basically double barell a lot with drawing hands and raise a lot with sets, pocket pairs, dont slowplay, YAY!
Ok, but let say u have stats about players, like VPIP, PFR, FAF, and how often they fold when raised....For example we have 5 players at table....
How would u play against them?
1. Vpip/ PFR 40/10
2. 30/20
3. 60/15
4.50/30
5. 20/18
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Ash256
Old 11-26-2007, 10:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didy
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
someone move this to beginner forum

basically double barell a lot with drawing hands and raise a lot with sets, pocket pairs, dont slowplay, YAY!
Ok, but let say u have stats about players, like VPIP, PFR, FAF, and how often they fold when raised....For example we have 5 players at table....
How would u play against them?
1. Vpip/ PFR 40/10
2. 30/20
3. 60/15
4.50/30
5. 20/18
You need to stop thinking in "yes" and "no" blocks and start thinking dynamically about a dynamic game.

Those stats only give you an insight into what their preflop ranges are likely to be. Think about what these ranges are and how best to exploit them.
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mixchange
Old 11-26-2007, 11:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Bet against them all and watch them fold

loose player bet large and watcht hem chase and play bad cards, dont fold
tight players take tons of small pots from them, and only go all in or call big raises with da goods

adjust as needed
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didy
Old 11-27-2007, 11:57 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
Bet against them all and watch them fold

loose player bet large and watcht hem chase and play bad cards, dont fold
tight players take tons of small pots from them, and only go all in or call big raises with da goods

adjust as needed
So logically there is Correlation between opponents VPIP and our VPIP, and PFR too...is that true? Will we make the most money?
For example if we play with 4 players with VPIP range 40-55 and PFR 10-15
this means that we should lower out VPIP and increase PFR, lets say 20/18, but maybe we would earn more with 30/25...where is the line?
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Ash256
Old 11-27-2007, 02:27 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 didy

An 11/6 player is at your table.

What mistakes is he making by playing this tight? How are you going to exploit his tightness?

An 80/30 player is at your table.

what mistakes is he making by playing this loose? How are you going to exploit that looseness?
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didy
Old 11-27-2007, 04:51 PM #15 (permalink)  
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For 11/6 player is easy, I should be more aggressive + bet more hands, especially from position.
But honestly, I am lost when I play against 80/30 player...usually I tighten up, but when I get monster he just fold or my AA ,KK are beaten with runner SD or FD.
from my experience, the best way to deal with them is little more aggression before somebody else kick his ass ( if I play 25/20,,,,then 30/25 ) with few traps especially when I hit monster.
Maybe this is wrong, I would like to hear your opinions, especially those with some evidence
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jackvance
Old 11-27-2007, 04:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didy
So logically there is Correlation between opponents VPIP and our VPIP, and PFR too...is that true? Will we make the most money?
For example if we play with 4 players with VPIP range 40-55 and PFR 10-15
this means that we should lower out VPIP and increase PFR, lets say 20/18, but maybe we would earn more with 30/25...where is the line?
That's not how you interpret VPIP/PFR.. it tells you something about their ranges. For example let's say you meet someone that is 80/1. If he raises preflop, you can be almost sure it's AA-KK-QQ. Makes it very easy to play against. And if he's in a pot, he can have virtually any hand, so he'll very often be playing total crap. (any VPIP>40% is usually a bad player)

Btw I often include math in my posts (more than anyone else here I think) so if you want some math browse through my posts .
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Ash256
Old 11-27-2007, 05:04 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didy
For 11/6 player is easy, I should be more aggressive + bet more hands, especially from position.
Let's take the 6.

If he raises pre you know he's got a fairly tight range, and you haven't got that much fold equity against his range.

So why try to bluff him?

Then again, we don't know if the really really loose player is the type to fold every missed flop or if he's a total calling station.


What I'm slowly beginning to get at here is that VPIP/PFR can reveal possible postflop tendencies but essentially it only tells you his preflop range.

Back in the day when I played really tight (13/11), people used to see those stats and think I didn't bet postflop unless I had a sick hand.. wrong!

Due to my nitty image I used to hammer at my aware opponents. I also met players with similar preflop stats who were excruciatingly passive postflop.
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didy
Old 11-27-2007, 08:51 PM #18 (permalink)  
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[quote="jackvance"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by didy
Btw I often include math in my posts (more than anyone else here I think) so if you want some math browse through my posts .
I will

Ok, lets say that we know flop turn and river stats...
I think is good to know, %FR,%TR, FF,TF,RF....so how often they Bet and fold....and now things get really complicated...I know that every info is important but I do not know how to implement those stats to make more profit

Lets say, that we know stats 2 players, and they call a bet of 4 bb,we hold JJ, flop [ 3s 9s Kc ]...we are first to act and we know that player X ( 60/10 and usually folds on turn ) and player Y ( 30/20 he usually folds or rr flop )
Now, what to do, when u have 2 or more contradictory player stats???
Maybe this is not a good example but I think u know what I wanna say
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Fnord
Old 11-27-2007, 09:01 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Chopper
Old 11-27-2007, 09:07 PM #20 (permalink)  
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turn the hud off and take notes on what you see. those "stats" are making you blind to the game itself.

i love playing 13/11 in a 6max game! i play about 8/8 UTG and 25/20 from BTN. cbet the appropriate players like monkeys and take it to the bank. now, if i can only start to play better post flop so i can start to open up...thats when i need to turn off the hud myself.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Ash256
Old 11-27-2007, 09:55 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Off to newbie land with you.
Fnord has rescued this thread.

OP, go play some poker.
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Jack Sawyer
Old 11-28-2007, 01:01 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 LOL, direct side effect of HUDs
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