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optimists
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07-30-2009, 07:50 AM
Post subject: How to play AK after you miss the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 10
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A little bit of general theoretical question. I realize that big slick is a nice hand to have and should be bet pre-flop quite nicely, as effectively only AA and KK have more chances winning it pre-flop (I consider any other pair to be a coinflip, though it is not pure 50/50).
Though I am a bit stuck on how to play AK after you see the flop and miss it (something like QhTs4c), especially when your opponent acts aggressively both pre-flop and after he sees the flop (when he is passive out of position, I would bet at least 1/2 pot, but what you do when he is in position and raises my bet substantially?).
My point is that you effectively have 6 outs (or 24% to win) before the turn and if someone bets heavily into you on the flop (indicating he's got at least a pair of whatever), should you fold AK or still hold to it just because it is a big slick?
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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it depends.
Too many variables to give an answer that applies in all situations.
I'm assuming you're talking full stacked (100bb) cash play?
You say that opponent has acted aggressively pre-flop - do you mean that pre-flop was 3-bet? that you flatted AK?
Also, when your c-bet is raised and you only have overcards then you can pretty much fold - unless you have overcards + FD etc, and then it comes down to pot odds.
Next question
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optimists
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
it depends.
Too many variables to give an answer that applies in all situations.
I'm assuming you're talking full stacked (100bb) cash play?
You say that opponent has acted aggressively pre-flop - do you mean that pre-flop was 3-bet? that you flatted AK?
Also, when your c-bet is raised and you only have overcards then you can pretty much fold - unless you have overcards + FD etc, and then it comes down to pot odds.
Next question
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Yes, you're right 100bb cash game. Aggressive I meant my 3-bet get raised 4 times my bet (to 12bb) and I call it. would it be right to re-raise it once again (to a shove)?
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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I think daven's point is more that how you play AK (or any hand, for that matter) varies depending on a multitude of variables. What may be the best play in scenario A might be terrible in scenario B with the exact same hand and the exact same board.
There's basics like, for example, you want to 3 bet a MP open with button cold call when you have AA on the SB, and everyone pretty much knows that.
But you can't have a default play on what to do when you miss the flop with AK. C-bet? Maybe, depends on villain and the board. Your c-bet gets raised? As daven said, unless you have outs and have the right odds, you probably want to fold. But yeah, trying to have a specific way of playing any hand is, in my opinion, really bad.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by optimists
Yes, you're right 100bb cash game. Aggressive I meant my 3-bet get raised 4 times my bet (to 12bb) and I call it. would it be right to re-raise it once again (to a shove)?
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ok, seems you're a bit lost on 3-bet and 4-bet terminology.
You opened to 3xbb (this is not a 3-bet) and villain 3-bet to 12xbb. Right? go to the dictionary (link on left) and read the definitions of 3-bet and 4-bet.
Anyway, assuming I've interpreted this correctly, then stakes and reads on villain matter. Back to it depends.
pre-flop and sometimes this is an easy shove, sometimes an easy call (but only ever in position), sometimes an easy fold. But, given the scenario you have described then you're pretty much fucked on this flop. Easy fold, but chances are that the important decision is the one prior to the one that you are focusing on - re-think your pre-flop play.
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optimists
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 10
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Thanks for educating me a bit  (I was really confused). Back to AK point. I realize that the whole poker game is very much situational and you may bet on 72o against a mouse, when you are pretty much sure he's got nothing (though myself I tend not to do such things). My point was that apart from various situations, there is basic theory behind the game, like for instance you NORMALLY should fold 72o in any position (except BB) and I cannot imagine any read or situation that would tell you to do so from any position.
So that was the essence of my initial post. what is theoretical background. And by the way, I do not think that having a game plan and a pre-flop calling/ raising range is something wrong, especially on micros. I do acknowledge once again that the game is very situational.
Returning to the point, as suggested let me ask how big slick is played pre-flop then (given no reads - assume 1 hand at the table)?
1) UTG. How much to bet is good? And what to do if someone re-raises you substantially?
2.1) MP. If UTG raises? Should I normally (theoretically) just call or re-raise?
2.2) MP. No raise before. Should I bet more or less than in point 1?
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Fielmann
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 330
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by optimists
1) UTG. How much to bet is good? And what to do if someone re-raises you substantially?
2.1) MP. If UTG raises? Should I normally (theoretically) just call or re-raise?
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I don't think anyone is able to give you a universal recipe on how to play AK from various positions, as it is always opponent-dependent. AK is a very problematic hand pre-flop and I've seen many experts offering quite contradictory advice.
You should think more in terms of ranges. Instead of being stuck thinking about your hand and your position (which are, of course, important), concentrate more on what your opponents might have.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by optimists
2.2) MP. No raise before. Should I bet more or less than in point 1?
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I would usually bet just as much in MP as in UTG. But if it has to be either more or less, then bet more. Two main reasons: 1) There's a smaller chance that people behind you get crazy and make you fold. 2) You have a slightly increased chance of being in position post-flop, and when you're in position you want the pot to be bigger, on average, as compared to when you're out of position.
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if it's QT4r then you have 10 outs in the best case and 4 outs in the worst case, and sometimes you're ahead
so it depends on how often you have the best hand, how often villain is going to fire the turn, how often our pair outs are clean, etc.
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There is no secret formula for AK but it doesn't have to be so comprehensive. It's a strong hand preflop, but after the flop it's just another hand. In a raised HU pot, I'm cbetting AK most times OOP and damn near every time IP. In multi-way (3+) pots OOP, I don't ever feel bad about check/folding where the flop comes 876m.
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I'm cbetting AK more often OOP than IP since I can check it back IP and sometimes make it to showdown
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