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How to play against chronic downplayers?
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jackvance
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03-26-2006, 10:38 PM
Post subject: How to play against chronic downplayers?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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At unibet where I play, at 10NL, there are people who simply downplay everything, no matter how big they hit. So if they limp in and the flop gives KK, and they check, they could be holding J5 (=nothing) or KK (=quads).
Here's an example:
Guy is holding TT, he limps in on 2BB, 3 people in the pot. The flop gives him his set and one overcard. He checks, another guy holding 22 raises 3BB, he calls. Turn is a 2. He checks, opp raises again 3BB, he calls. River is a blank. He check, opp checks. He wins the 19BB pot with trip 10s vs trip 2s.
My question: what is the best way to play against people like that? I mean, if he calls a raise, he can have anything really. The only way to potentially get a read on his hand would be to "see how high of a raise he will call".
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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make a good hand and bet. If someone makes bigger set against your set, you're losing money. Be glad he isn't raising.
ALso I assume they aren't check calling with the J5. So if you get called, slow down, take free cards.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Just dont try to bluff these opponents. If you hit, bet, if you dont hit, then dont bet. Its a simple strategy, but takes patience to follow it.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Yeah I'm getting the hand of things better.. simply calling a lot more, as I can get free looks at flop, turn and river quite often.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Yeah I'm getting the hand of things better.. simply calling a lot more, as I can get free looks at flop, turn and river quite often.
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If you mean preflop then I would suggest that this is the wrong way to go about things. You could be leaking lots of money trying to see flops with hands that aren't going to make monsters very often anyway. At lower stakes I find that playing super tight when everyone around you is really loose is the key to winning loads.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I know everyone here keeps saying that, but it simply does not work with the 6max crowd I've been playing. (at unibet) Whenever I play super tight, if I get something and raise, everyone folds. The only callers you'll get will be holding monsters. So if I can see the flop with 79s for 1BB and 5 other people in there, I should go for it. Simple math shows this is probably a good idea. And the added benefit is that I will atleast get callers when I hit decent cards.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Yeah perhaps. When I played 10nl I used to raise to 20bb and get 3 callers.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Playing lots of hands at 6 max is fine.... as long as you are good enough to fold when you hit a little sumtin sumtin.
I have at times played very LAGG (loose aggressive) at 6 max or 5 max tables. Raising every button hand that is folded to me, defending every BB, etc.
Lately though, I have found it to be much more profitable to simply play super tight and get paid off with my big hands. This approach will also let me make back blinds by restealing, because I do it so infrequently it almost always works.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Here are some examples to shed some light into my aggravations:
I sit down at a table, I make some money right off the bat when a guy throws his $1.5 all-in when I'm holding AA. The table seems to be more aggressive than usual though. When I get AT, I raise 3BB, three callers.. flop gives all low cards. I raise 3BB to weed out the chasers, one fold, two callers. Turn is another blank, so I check, the guy next to me raises $1.20. The other guy calls, and I fold (I got nothing). Showdown shows that the $1.20 raise came from the exact same hand I had.. AT.. and he won the pot with high card!
Table runs a bit dry, I move away. New table is a bit more passive. A typical downplayers-fest. One hand should outline what this means. I'm holding J2 on the BB, three limpers, I check in there. Flop gives KK6. Hm, anyone holding the K? I check to see if anyone claims to have it. Three checks. Turn gives another K. Should a guy be holding it, he'll have quads now. I raise 3BB to probe for potential people holding it. Two people call. The river gives a J. So now I have full house.. only the K would beat me. So I raise 5BB.. one fold, the last guy reraise me to 10BB. Hm, what to think of this? My GUT tells me his holding the K. But all he did was play a passive game. Maybe thinking I am bluffing so he reraises me? Or he has a 6 and a full house below mine? Ok, I call. Ofcourse he had the king..
See? I can't really seem to get a grip of these people.. are they bluffing with nothing, downplaying the nuts? What the hell are they doing? I have no idea most of the time since it's so very random, so I don't really know what to do, unless *I* hit the nuts but that's ever so rare.. in the more likely scenario where I get something but there's better stuff out there, whatever my opponents do seems to be all random..
Any ideas?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
See? I can't really seem to get a grip of these people.. are they bluffing with nothing, downplaying the nuts? What the hell are they doing? I have no idea most of the time since it's so very random, so I don't really know what to do, unless *I* hit the nuts but that's ever so rare.. in the more likely scenario where I get something but there's better stuff out there, whatever my opponents do seems to be all random..
Any ideas?
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Thats exactly why I say play really tight. These people cant fold, so bet when you have a good hand, check/fold when you don't. When you say "I bet to weed out the callers" what you are really doing is building a pot with a load of calling stations when all you have is A high. Now imagine in the same situation you have AA, you bet they call, you bet they call, you bet they call, bingo! You win a big pot. Now I'm sure you are winning big pots with your AA and you're sets and the like but at the same time you are leaking all that profit away by betting those crap A high, J3 hands. Cut them out and all of a sudden you're taking home your winnings!
See what I mean?
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Here are some examples to shed some light into my aggravations:
I sit down at a table, I make some money right off the bat when a guy throws his $1.5 all-in when I'm holding AA. The table seems to be more aggressive than usual though. When I get AT, I raise 3BB, three callers.. flop gives all low cards. I raise 3BB to weed out the chasers, one fold, two callers. Turn is another blank, so I check, the guy next to me raises $1.20. The other guy calls, and I fold (I got nothing). Showdown shows that the $1.20 raise came from the exact same hand I had.. AT.. and he won the pot with high card!
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DO NOT FOCUS ON RESULTS!!! Only focus on your decisions. What you just wrote is the equivalent of the following train of thought. I get dealt 27os and fold, everyone else limps. Flop comes 222 and someone goes all-in! OMG I woulda had quads and taken all his money!! I am so dumb!! From now on since this table is full of fish I wll just limp everything as well.
Don't bring yourself down to your opp's skill level. Your goal is to play better than them, not join them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Table runs a bit dry, I move away. New table is a bit more passive. A typical downplayers-fest. One hand should outline what this means. I'm holding J2 on the BB, three limpers, I check in there. Flop gives KK6. Hm, anyone holding the K? I check to see if anyone claims to have it. Three checks. Turn gives another K. Should a guy be holding it, he'll have quads now. I raise 3BB to probe for potential people holding it. Two people call. The river gives a J. So now I have full house.. only the K would beat me. So I raise 5BB.. one fold, the last guy reraise me to 10BB. Hm, what to think of this? My GUT tells me his holding the K. But all he did was play a passive game. Maybe thinking I am bluffing so he reraises me? Or he has a 6 and a full house below mine? Ok, I call. Ofcourse he had the king..
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Why probe a nothing pot? Check/fold. When you do get called (TWICE!!) on that turn there learn to give it up. How else is someone gonna play quads at this level? I could understand a check/call on that river, but your bet/call deserves no sympathy.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
See? I can't really seem to get a grip of these people.. are they bluffing with nothing, downplaying the nuts? What the hell are they doing? I have no idea most of the time since it's so very random, so I don't really know what to do, unless *I* hit the nuts but that's ever so rare.. in the more likely scenario where I get something but there's better stuff out there, whatever my opponents do seems to be all random..
Any ideas?
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You aren't getting a "grip" for two reasons: 1) retards are unreadable, they will call with anything, so just wait for your hands and make em pay, 2) stop playing down to their level. It is OK, no it is GOOD to FOLD. FOLDING is the best move in poker BY FAR!!! The vast majority of your winnings will come from folding hands that give other people better hands and maximizing your value when you do hit a monster. Stealing blinds and small pots just keeps you even.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Irisheyes = chardrian 
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Why probe a nothing pot? Check/fold. When you do get called (TWICE!!) on that turn there learn to give it up. How else is someone gonna play quads at this level? I could understand a check/call on that river, but your bet/call deserves no sympathy.
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Yeah you're totally right.. normally I wouldn't have thought twice about simply checking there.. like I said my "gut" told me he had the K.. but I guess what happened at the table before got under my skin..
Thx for putting things back in perspective.. it's so easy to drift from your game..
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Here are some examples to shed some light into my aggravations:
I sit down at a table, I make some money right off the bat when a guy throws his $1.5 all-in when I'm holding AA. The table seems to be more aggressive than usual though. When I get AT, I raise 3BB, three callers.. flop gives all low cards. I raise 3BB to weed out the chasers, one fold, two callers. Turn is another blank, so I check, the guy next to me raises $1.20. The other guy calls, and I fold (I got nothing). Showdown shows that the $1.20 raise came from the exact same hand I had.. AT.. and he won the pot with high card!
Table runs a bit dry, I move away. New table is a bit more passive. A typical downplayers-fest. One hand should outline what this means. I'm holding J2 on the BB, three limpers, I check in there. Flop gives KK6. Hm, anyone holding the K? I check to see if anyone claims to have it. Three checks. Turn gives another K. Should a guy be holding it, he'll have quads now. I raise 3BB to probe for potential people holding it. Two people call. The river gives a J. So now I have full house.. only the K would beat me. So I raise 5BB.. one fold, the last guy reraise me to 10BB. Hm, what to think of this? My GUT tells me his holding the K. But all he did was play a passive game. Maybe thinking I am bluffing so he reraises me? Or he has a 6 and a full house below mine? Ok, I call. Ofcourse he had the king..
See? I can't really seem to get a grip of these people.. are they bluffing with nothing, downplaying the nuts? What the hell are they doing? I have no idea most of the time since it's so very random, so I don't really know what to do, unless *I* hit the nuts but that's ever so rare.. in the more likely scenario where I get something but there's better stuff out there, whatever my opponents do seems to be all random..
Any ideas?
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Again, this goes to what we have said this whole thread. If you have a hand, bet it for value, if you dont, then dont bet. You cant bluff somebody who doesnt fold.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Thx for the inspiring words and putting up with me guys 
I finally found some stability in my game I guess. Atleast temporarily ^^. Yesterday my BR was $10, now it's at $30 so I did good it seems, despite some bad beats like a KK vs QQ all-in butchering me. I'm starting to like 10NL. When I can make $8 with TPMK cuz the other guy just can't fold, and then lose only $2 with a flush vs an undetectable full house, where I very well coulda been destacked too.. that's nice. Also stayed cool with a very aggressive guy to my left - these situations used to bring me off balance a lot - so I just waited him out, and about 20 minutes later I doubled up with TPMK. (come to think of it, never got really good hands either today)
Not by far in any safe zone, but after a look at my bank account today, I was just glad I didn't need to refill my BR right away, now I got atleast a couple of days left to bonk on my $30 lol.
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