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archenemy
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12-08-2008, 05:01 PM
Post subject: How to play against a 3bet...
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1
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Ok this is a situation I was in earlier today and wasn't sure how to react. I apologize in advance for not having the fancy set-up I see in the other topics, I'm just posting this by memory and don't have any software right now where I could look up the hand and convert it.
Alright I am third to act with AJo and raise four times the big blind. The next to act min-raises and everyone else folds back to me. We both have very large stack sizes but since I was new to the table I had no read on this guy. I decide to call, what this the right decision?
Also say the button or cutoff had called or raised again, how does my play change now that I am operating in the dark?
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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The min-raise is weak, so call. If LP re-raises, fold.
Since you're not out of position, you need to hit the flop hard to stay in the hand. Villan is likely on big pockets or a better kicker with AK.
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I call and hope for AAJ flop
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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AJ is not a great hand to play in 3bet pots OOP. because its just a min raise, you could go ahead and see a flop though
what stakes are you playing? at low limits a lot of players seem to min-raise with AA/KK because they think they're luring you into a pot or something. i really don't know what they're thinking lol, but that's the line i've seen a lot of 2NL-ers take.
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I call and hope for AAJ flop
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If you think the villain sucks, then fourbet/fold to 15bb and hope for airball flop.
Calling in that spot (deep/oop/with no postflop plan besides flopping a joint) is gross.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
at low limits a lot of players seem to min-raise with AA/KK because they think they're luring you into a pot or something. i really don't know what they're thinking lol, but that's the line i've seen a lot of 2NL-ers take.
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Some of fishes 3bet minimum KK+, the other ones do it wide and on microstakes there's no shortage of people doing it with crap like K7s or 67s (suited, drawing hand, that is slightly behind against Ax). The last ones do that gaymin3bet just to juice the pot and (without being aware of it) to take initiative away and get the other guy to go into "fit or fold" mode.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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What do you mean calling is gross. The villain made a mistake of raising too little.
Here is how to exploit that mistake:
either raise if villain's min 3b are weak
or call if it's strong
without a read on the guy do we really want to invest a bet preflop when we can see a flop getting 3-to-1? sometimes we'll flop an ace and it will be good
sometimes we'll flop a jack and it will be good
sometimes we'll take it away post-flop if we see that his line is weak
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What do you mean calling is gross. The villain made a mistake of raising too little.
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But villain still successfully took away initiative from us, and basically forced us to hit a hand in order to continue.
Give me in that spot AQs, 77, JTs, A2s, hell even K9s or Q9s and it's pretty easy implied odds call against a sucker who will pay me off postflop like a slot machine (lol fnordaments). Those hands hit big more often, than unpaired offsuit cards.
AQo, AJo are much better to small re-raise back (it doesn't have to be a full pot). This allows to insert QQ+ into our ranges, throw away KK+ from villain range (because he'll likely 5-bet those), sets up smaller SPR, re-takes initiative (by repping strong range) and gains insane amount of folding equity, while still having decent equity vs calling range (88-TT, flopped weak pairs, second pairs).
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What do you mean calling is gross. The villain made a mistake of raising too little.
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I agree with both statements - calling is gross AND he made a mistake by betting too little.
The problem with AJ is not the equity (see below), its the total lack of postflop playability against a TAGG villain's range. We are priced in - minraise means we're getting better than 3 to 1 on our preflop call. Here are some equity calculations from PokerStove.
22% equity for AJ vs. KK+
24.3% equity for AJ vs. QQ+
24% equity for AJ vs. KK+, AK
If anything more than KK+ is in range, we're priced in.
The problem with the hand is its lack of playability postflop. Seriously, what are we going to do if we hit our top pair? The only flops we can bet confidently are AJx, KQT and JJx - even AAx is dicey (unless its AAJ like iopq said earlier). Even ip, playing AJ in a 3bet pot is grim.
With AJo, folding to 3bets is generally a good option. Just think about how difficult this hand is to play on the flop and hit the eject button. If you're multiway you've got even better odds for the call, but even worse playability. Hit the eject button twice.
There are a small number of villains on whom I have reads where I would call - villains I think I can massively outplay postflop. Even then, though, I'm a more likely to 4bet/fold.
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what do you mean "forced us to hit"
ever heard of check/raising the flop with air?
is he calling a check/raise on a Kxx flop with JJ or QQ? What about a Axx flop? If he has a mid pair he has a tough decision if the flop contains an overcard
plus his range is way wider
you can't say JJ+ when he min 3b you
it's more like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, T9s+, KJs+, KQo
and he goes "But I wanted to raise first!"
if that's his range, we have 40% equity, certainly enough to call but not enough to 4b unless we're doing it as a bluff
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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check raising the flop with air against a guy who min 3 bets pre is usually not a good idea. He is likely a fish and won't fold jj-qq on a Kxx flop.
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Well, of course it's difficult to make a decision without reads, but I've already stated he doesn't have JJ+ here every time
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Yeah, I think IOPQ is right here - if he's reasonably loose, we can play AJ in this pot for a call. If he's tight/decent, this is tough to play oop.
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mieczkowusc
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lurking in BC or IRC
Posts: 225
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Maybe this is nitty, but I fold AJo OOP to a min 3bet. In position, i'll give it a go because I have the extra information, or I'll play it OOP if its suited to semi-bluff a good flop.
I would also say that level is important in this instance.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
Maybe this is nitty, but I fold AJo OOP to a min 3bet. In position, i'll give it a go because I have the extra information, or I'll play it OOP if its suited to semi-bluff a good flop.
I would also say that level is important in this instance.
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Today someone min 3b me... he had 88
Do you think you can play against 88 profitably OOP getting 3-to-1? His hand is very difficult to play, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had tons of folding equity on most non-ragged flops
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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It's not only incredibly nitty to fold it's a pretty obvious mistake. I call with ATC and hope to flop gin. We're getting amazing implied odds here. I used to only see the min 3-bet with AA or KK and it's still rare with anything else. If he's doing this with junk and we miss and check-fold we're not losing much, especially since he's obviously a fish whose money we'll get eventually. I fold AJo third to act before I fold to a min 3-bet after raising.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Really depends on implied odds/how often you can win postflop/how much you can win postflop/how often you have the best hand now/blah blah blah
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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I fold AJo preflop to a 3bet, regardless of what I think the guy's 3bet means. Against most villains I have absolutely no idea where I'm at in the hand. I don't know if I'm ahead if I flop TPTK on a Jxx flop and if an ace falls I still don't know.
I wait for a better spot tbh. I maybe call AJs but even that is debatable, and usually a fold.
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oh noes you don't know if you're ahead in the hand, we must have the nuts to play!
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Is he calling a check/raise on a Kxx flop with JJ or QQ? What about a Axx flop? If he has a mid pair he has a tough decision if the flop contains an overcard
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He's going to check behind second pairs 80% of the time or flat call with everything he want to continue, if we lead strong at him.
Quote:
plus his range is way wider
you can't say JJ+ when he min 3b you
it's more like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, T9s+, KJs+, KQo
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That's why, either fold or 4bet him. He'll 5-bet shove top range (super easy fold to us) and call with his ass-end of range, which will allow us to actually have some +EV, when we flop a hand and decide to play for stacks.
Quote:
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without a read on the guy do we really want to invest a bet preflop when we can see a flop getting 3-to-1?
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If that bet will narrow villain's postflop range to something like AT-AQ, KJ+, T9+, 88-TT and get him to fold most of this postflop, then yes, we do want to invest a bet because it's good investment.
Quote:
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Sometimes we'll take it away post-flop if we see that his line is weak
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It's much tougher pull fancy float vs unknown. When we don't want to give up yet, then (in that specific spot) 4bet-bet will take it away way more often, because it looks more straightforward.
Quote:
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not enough to 4b unless we're doing it as a bluff
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If it's small 4bet, then it's not a total bluff, maybe slight overrepresentation of a hand. Villain already demonstrated, how he sucks at sizing the bets and probably hates folding pf, so it's more value play, than a bluff play.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
It's not only incredibly nitty to fold it's a pretty obvious mistake. I call with ATC and hope to flop gin. We're getting amazing implied odds here. I used to only see the min 3-bet with AA or KK and it's still rare with anything else. If he's doing this with junk and we miss and check-fold we're not losing much, especially since he's obviously a fish whose money we'll get eventually. I fold AJo third to act before I fold to a min 3-bet after raising.
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Yeah, there's a ton of hands I wouldn't mind calling with here because of the "priced in" principle. But AJo oop in a 3bet pot sucks so hard it leaves bruises.
About getting his money...maybe later?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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I would fold AJo
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Fold to the 3-bet OOP with AJo without special circumstances that suggest otherwise.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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It's not a real 3-bet though. If we fold to min 3-bets as the PFR the min 3-bet starts becoming a good play against us.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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true point, but I would want to allow him to also exploit us by bloating a pot in position while we hold a hand with big reverse implied odds and a head filled with question marks.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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The bigger the effective stack, the more inclined I am to call.
Min raises preflop are mistakes, unless the raiser knows their villain folds frequently to such raises.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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when we 4b a min 3b we're asking for trouble especially since we're behind his range
Macro poker tells us that we exploit tiny bets by calling them when we would otherwise fold
we can't play raise/fold to tiny bets because we'll get raped
do you play the same way on the flop too? someone minraises our cbet, are we only going to fold or 3b? that has to be a mistake
now, usually I do fold to minraises on the flop, but that's because I don't feel I have equity
but certainly when I do have equity I'm not going to 3b unless I want to play for stacks
I think this applies preflop as well, if we have equity we should call minraises
if we have 72o we fold
if we have AA we 4b
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
plus his range is way wider
you can't say JJ+ when he min 3b you
it's more like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, T9s+, KJs+, KQo
and he goes "But I wanted to raise first!"
if that's his range, we have 40% equity, certainly enough to call but not enough to 4b unless we're doing it as a bluff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
when we 4b a min 3b we're asking for trouble especially since we're behind his range
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AJo has 43% equity against the range you specified. But think of how much of that range he has to fold to a 4bet. How can calling here (with an impossible oop flop decision on the way) be better than 4betting which takes down a sizeable pot about 80% of the time against the range you suggested?
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Bestial
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
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I would fold with AJo. 3 bets - that's not nice. Better not risc.. Tight game - that's the way 
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Sabr1988
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark, Kalundborg
Posts: 66
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Like AFchung say, i would just take a call and take a look at the flop first, AJ is not that great, if i should raise like you did it would be with QQ, KK or AA.
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With patience you win
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Sabr1988
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark, Kalundborg
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bestial
I would fold with AJo. 3 bets - that's not nice. Better not risc.. Tight game - that's the way |
Are you sure about that?
I would never fold AJ, never. I would check at least, but never fold, only if some non-maniac goes allin.
You just must not fold a AJ, thats what i call maniac 
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With patience you win
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
plus his range is way wider
you can't say JJ+ when he min 3b you
it's more like 99+, ATs+, AJo+, T9s+, KJs+, KQo
and he goes "But I wanted to raise first!"
if that's his range, we have 40% equity, certainly enough to call but not enough to 4b unless we're doing it as a bluff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
when we 4b a min 3b we're asking for trouble especially since we're behind his range
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AJo has 43% equity against the range you specified. But think of how much of that range he has to fold to a 4bet. How can calling here (with an impossible oop flop decision on the way) be better than 4betting which takes down a sizeable pot about 80% of the time against the range you suggested? |
You're trying to 4b bluff a donk. Somehow I don't think that's such a great idea.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
You're trying to 4b bluff a donk. Somehow I don't think that's such a great idea.
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With AJo, we're going to be bluffing the flop either way. With the 4bet, we're not trying to bluff him, yet. We're repping a much better range to fold out medium strength hands.
The bluff comes on the flop, whether we call the 3bet or use the 4bet/fold line. And which bluff is better, the 3-bet flat caller donking into a wide range of hands or the preflop 4-bet leader making a cbet into a very narrow range?
Choose your poison, or fold preflop.
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soccerkeeper
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What do you mean calling is gross. The villain made a mistake of raising too little.
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I agree with both statements - calling is gross AND he made a mistake by betting too little.
The problem with AJ is not the equity (see below), its the total lack of postflop playability against a TAGG villain's range. We are priced in - minraise means we're getting better than 3 to 1 on our preflop call. Here are some equity calculations from PokerStove.
22% equity for AJ vs. KK+
24.3% equity for AJ vs. QQ+
24% equity for AJ vs. KK+, AK
If anything more than KK+ is in range, we're priced in.
The problem with the hand is its lack of playability postflop. Seriously, what are we going to do if we hit our top pair? The only flops we can bet confidently are AJx, KQT and JJx - even AAx is dicey (unless its AAJ like iopq said earlier). Even ip, playing AJ in a 3bet pot is grim.
With AJo, folding to 3bets is generally a good option. Just think about how difficult this hand is to play on the flop and hit the eject button. If you're multiway you've got even better odds for the call, but even worse playability. Hit the eject button twice.
There are a small number of villains on whom I have reads where I would call - villains I think I can massively outplay postflop. Even then, though, I'm a more likely to 4bet/fold. |
this is verry veryy true
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