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rowhousepd
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07-15-2010, 09:43 AM
Post subject: How to play 5NL micro villains who min bets into big pots on all streets?!?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 213
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First off, I know I know -- I shouldn't have 3bet 44 preflop, especially vs an EP raise. I know. The little I knew of him suggested he was loose passive, but couldn't say for sure. This illustrates, however, a pattern I see in the micros a lot, and it drives me crazy! Here goes....
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
LP: $4.95
CO: $1.17
Hero (BTN): $6.38
SB: $6.59
BB: $16.44
UTG: $6.07
UTG+1: $3.85
MP: $3.05
MP+1: $5.46
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 4 4
fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.17, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.33
Flop: ($1.07, 2 players) 6 A 5
UTG+1 bets $0.05, Hero raises to $1.22, UTG+1 calls $1.17
Turn: ($3.51, 2 players) A
UTG+1 bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05
River: ($3.61, 2 players) A
UTG+1 bets $0.05,
Hero.....???
I'm either 1) up against air, but the idiot donkey read somewhere that you should keep betting if you have a hand, and sometimes even when you don't, so he puts in these tiny bets (are these called post-oak bluffs, btw?) ... as if they would make me fold. Or 2) he has an A and is being retarded about it. No, of course an baby underpair wasn't great, but I didn't put him on AX w/ his actions on the flop & turn, let alone when the other 2 Aces hit on the turn AND river. There's no way this guy has that 4th ace and bet like that. So he min-raises $.05 on ALL streets! 
Anyway, how do you handle something like this??? If he had checked I could have been more likely to check the flop and drop the turn w/ any betting from him (real betting I mean.) But that stupid tiny bet ... what the f--k is he trying to do? Be fancy? Be a donk? Mess w/ me? Take another swig of his whiskey and continue to play oh-who-gives-a-**** poker?
[Spoiler alert: he does NOT have an ace.]
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhousepd
I'm either 1) up against air, but the idiot donkey read somewhere that you should keep betting if you have a hand, and sometimes even when you don't, so he puts in these tiny bets (are these called post-oak bluffs, btw?) ... as if they would make me fold. Or 2) he has an A and is being retarded about it.
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O rly?
I really don't know why you have a problem with a villain like this. You ought to love him, he's a calling station. The only problem is that you're putting money in the pot without thinking about his entire range most of which I would guess, without stats, you're behind.
*Don't bluff fish who are yet to locate the fold button*, especially not in situations where you're not sure where you are in the hand. Wait until you have a hand , you're confident you're good and then take advantage of his high vpip and pwn him.
As played call the river for pot odds obv, but in future try to avoid getting yourself into a situation like this. And no probably don't 3bet pocket fours without strong reads.
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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This is a really bad spot to 3 bet 44 as it fails to get value or as a bluff. Assuming neither of the blinds are maniac squeezers we can call and play a pot IP with a larger SPR against someone who has a decently strong range but won't fold much of it when we hit our set.
As played calling the minbets and taking a note is best vs this guy.
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c4ptain_obv
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One Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
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* you only want to 3B 44 in this spot when you have read that villain folds to PF3B a lot and if the blinds aren't too loose imo.
+ what hoopydude said
*put him on range every street instead of making general assumptions
* small bets means good potodds. So if you have some sdvalue or a draw, you can take this to your advantage
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Ya, my first thought here would not be "FFS stop betting .05 at me, it's annoying", it would be "oh look he called a 3bet and then a hefty raise on the flop, what might he have that we beat?"
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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terribad 3 bet against EP open. 3betting pre actually puts you in a really awkward spot on the flop because you can actually make a case for bluffing out better pocket pairs, but i still prefer a passive call-down line to his min bets, and noting what he's doing it with for future reference
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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not sure why you wouldn't love playing this guy.
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Arjonius
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 122
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Why do you want to play a big pot in a decidedly marginal situation against someone on whom you have no info? There are micro players who bet like this, but they're not all the same, so why not try to get to a cheap showdown to see what he has?
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Above comments aside, your raise seems awfully large to me (would you valuebet this much?). Just feels like you're taking a huge risk in bluffing someone with loose/passive tendencies. (Both pre and on the flop)
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(Josh)
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cleanup.that
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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This only drives you crazy because you don't have enough patience. These players aren't going to beat you for buy-ins by min donking all the time. But you WILL beat them for stacks when you adjust your play properly. Just realize that and stop spewing in marginal spots.
Against someone like this, play straightforwardly and raise when you have it. Even when it is very clear you only are doing this when you have a hand, these guys will level themselves into doing some stupid shit anyway.
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You wanna die? Run on up on that black Seven forty-five.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanup.that
This only drives you crazy because you don't have enough patience. These players aren't going to beat you for buy-ins by min donking all the time. But you WILL beat them for stacks when you adjust your play properly. Just realize that and stop spewing in marginal spots.
Against someone like this, play straightforwardly and raise when you have it. Even when it is very clear you only are doing this when you have a hand, these guys will level themselves into doing some stupid shit anyway.
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Yea habitual min bet donks will never hurt you very badly but you can hurt them badly. I would say don't bluff these guys. Don't fold any made hands. I know that sounds bad but if he's giving you 7-1 or more on every street you will likely be good often enough to call but that depends on his range. One way to beat these guys is to chase all your draws. Take a passive calling station line with you marginal holdings and pounce when you hit gin.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Why did you 3-bet pre-flop? Giving a real answer to this question will help you quite a bit and help you actually avoid making the same error in the future.
You should consider all of your options instead of just raising or folding on the flop. This might come from a fear of not knowing what to do, so you try to force the situation. What's wrong with calling? If you want to think about your hand as a 2-out draw, that's fine.
On the river as played, refer to How To: Analyze Calling An All-in, which turns this into a simple math problem. Basically you've got to call, even though you're super rarely going to be ahead. [emphasis]And that's okay.[/emphasis]
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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What made you 3-bet an utg raise with 44? what is your plan for the hand? Why do min-bets bother you? They are basically checks anyways.
As played, since you decided to bluff preflop and on the flop.. you have to decide how profitable it is to continue the bluff.
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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Don't know why this is a tough situation, you're being given odds to draw to your set post!
On river your thought process should be like "hm am I going to be good the 1.45% of the time I need to be to make this call?"
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliafedrsts
HI did you see Predatorz movie.I think the maibn actor better selzs viagra.Than play in movie like this.First predator was much betr
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New sig.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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River is a super easy call. You will usually be behind but people run dumb ass bluffs often enough to make this a snap call
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rowhousepd
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR9477
Above comments aside, your raise seems awfully large to me (would you valuebet this much?). Just feels like you're taking a huge risk in bluffing someone with loose/passive tendencies. (Both pre and on the flop)
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Bad 3bet preflop aside for a sec, confused about overbetting in cases like this on the flop. Do you think my overbet represented that I didn't have a great hand and was trying to make him fold an ace? The board wasn't drawy, so I wasn't too worried about him improving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
Ya, my first thought here would not be "FFS stop betting .05 at me, it's annoying", it would be "oh look he called a 3bet and then a hefty raise on the flop, what might he have that we beat?"
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Yes, indeed. Until I get better I have to think like this a lot more. I'm still learnin'...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Why did you 3-bet pre-flop? Giving a real answer to this question will help you quite a bit and help you actually avoid making the same error in the future.
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I guess mainly because I'd seen him go in w/ some terrible hands and I wanted to take advantage of his loose VPIP ... but I probably should have 3bet if I thought I could make him fold ... which as we know, fish dont do. My bad. Uuug. (Am about to ready that thread you suggested -- thanks!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR9477
Above comments aside, your raise seems awfully large to me (would you valuebet this much?). Just feels like you're taking a huge risk in bluffing someone with loose/passive tendencies. (Both pre and on the flop)
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If he were a tight-passive nit, would that have made this overbet more justified do you think?
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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It's not an overbet, but I think it's just larger than necessary. If you'd bet 90c-$1 you'd risk a bit less and have the same effect. (But this particular guy isn't folding btw)
You also can valuebet the same amount and set up a nice turn shove, this way you wouldn't have bet sizing tells. I know most low stakes players don't pay enough attention to know this, but forcing yourself to think more may help you pick up on others tendencies.
As for who to do this against, it depends on your reads. I have met players who minbet as a signal they are weak and ready to fold, and others minbet because they have a little something and aren't easily willing to fold.
Getting it in pre isn't very good with 44, you're barely ahead of junk hands like J5o, better to hit a set and get your value postflop.
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(Josh)
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR9477
It's not an overbet, but I think it's just larger than necessary. If you'd bet 90c-$1 you'd risk a bit less and have the same effect. (But this particular guy isn't folding btw)
You also can valuebet the same amount and set up a nice turn shove, this way you wouldn't have bet sizing tells. I know most low stakes players don't pay enough attention to know this, but forcing yourself to think more may help you pick up on others tendencies.
As for who to do this against, it depends on your reads. I have met players who minbet as a signal they are weak and ready to fold, and others minbet because they have a little something and aren't easily willing to fold.
Getting it in pre isn't very good with 44, you're barely ahead of junk hands like J5o, better to hit a set and get your value postflop.
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I still don't get the point of raising at all anywhere in this hand
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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@newfishy
Because there is none, I was just trying to focus on something other than the obvious.
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(Josh)
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