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pokerja3
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03-12-2005, 05:46 PM
Post subject: how often do you see the flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22
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I consider myself a pretty tight player, and I see the flop about 40% of the time(according to poker stars).... so how often do you see the flop, and include what type of player u consider yourself...thanks
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40% is not tight by any stretch of imagination, you are seeing A LOT of flops.
I usually see maximum 20% (running hot) and minium 12% (running cold)
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DoGGz
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40% is very loose.
I see about 25% personally. NL more hands then limit
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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Holy crap...40% !!!! Hope you arent playing ring games
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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I see about 30 percent of the flops if I'm running hot... 12 pecent when I'm not. Roughly.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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see flop 15% over 300000 hands.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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I see somewhere between 15-20% of flops when I'm running well. When I'm sucking at poker, I'm seeing 30-40% of the flops, usually because of tilt or something.
Sounds like you may be playing a loose aggressive style. If that works, go for it, but if you're trying to play tight, 40% is way too much.
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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I'm at 25% normal (1/4), 33% when on a roll (1/3), 20% cold (1/5)
Use simple fractions 
I'm not tight, but I'm not loose either, & I'm aggressive (TAgg) 
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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NL cash games are much different than tournaments or limit games. There is a huge difference, rocks in NL cash games make very little. If you don't want to gamble, don't play NL cash games. Stick to tournaments and limit play.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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about 25% in full 10 person ring games, and about 50% in 6max (which i think is a bit too loose).
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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In my usual 0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player I see flop 25-30%, playing 1-3 hours.
I get down to 15-16% if I need to tighten up.
I think I will try to reduce to 20-25% by folding
more medium hands played from bad position.
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ville18
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo mama
Posts: 223
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~17%
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Radix
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15
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Posting threads like this that can really help you out. I used to play around 40% and I thought I was tight until I asked and found out that 40% is entirely too loose. You need to tighten up.
I'm not accusing you of this, but many players suffer from what I call "WPT syndrome". They see these pros on T.V. calling and raising with crazy hands and think that is how they should play, not realizing the difference between tournament and ring game play. That is also why you see people wearing sunglasses at a $2/$4 table.
In my opinion, 15-20% is ideal. Seeing too many flops is a major leak and plugging it will help out a lot. 
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goolick
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sarcophagi
Posts: 29
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If I am a big stack, I find myself seeing more and more flops (not good). Don't let yourself get drawn into flops w/ weak hands. IMO the best to be it is about 20%
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"Only two things are infinite - The Universe, and Human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe."
-Albert Einstein
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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just would like to mention. he said 40% according to pokerstars. while this is still loose, it could be including BB/SB play. this would definitely throw off his numbers.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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Radix
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15
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If he's seeing 40% with blinds included, does that mean he is defending his blinds too much?
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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40 isnt defending blinds...Its downright insane. Cash game needs to stay low...DONT DEFEND YOUR BLIND (until you get to higher blinds 1-2 and higher or a tourney)
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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At tables with frequent limping I'll see as much as 30% - 35%. However this is incredibly loose at a table with frequent preflop raising, which is probably where most folks who responded are coming from.
At micro NL tables I would expect your % to be much higher than at a table with more folks who know what they are doing.
Also, keep in mind that this must be talking about ring games. To talk about flops seen % in a SnG is pretty much pointless because of the fact that the game gets short handed as you move on.
I finished a SnG last night, took 2nd. I looked at my stats when it was over, and my flops seen was 70%. That's because 3 players busted out before the 30th hand. 3 more players were out before 80. It was heads up play for 60% of the hands dealt. So naturally the flops seen is going to be huge, even though for the first 50 hands my flops seen was only something like 25%.
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Bo G
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 274
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In a micro games with a lot of limpers i.e. $0.10-0.25 blinds I will see about 30-35% flops. Once the flop comes even a $0.25 raise will fold just about everybody. Always made me wonder why are you going into the hand if you don't want to bet anything post flop.
In higher stake games i.e. $0.50-$1 and up your flop seeing % should be around 20%
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TLS TIDALWAVE
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 9
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I consider myself Tight/Aggressive - I see approx. 10% of flops.
For you tight players - What kind of pocket hand do you need to see a flop? I know it depends on position and # of bets - just in general.
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NTidd
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 20
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I tend to play in about 6 person games usually against the same people, I probably see about 60% of the flops, I usually bet preflop, my stack will dwindle down to begin with but the players get used to the way I've been raising and then when I get a good hand I will win a big pot and gain some momentum, I usually don't have a problem getting away from a hand that I have bet on preflop. However I deffinetly play differently against people I don't know until I figure out there style of play.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLS TIDALWAVE
I consider myself Tight/Aggressive - I see approx. 10% of flops.
For you tight players - What kind of pocket hand do you need to see a flop? I know it depends on position and # of bets - just in general.
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10% is a rock. You're missing a lot of +EV situations just camping for the top 10% of hands.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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TLS TIDALWAVE
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 9
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Then what is Tight/Aggressive?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLS TIDALWAVE
Then what is Tight/Aggressive?
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Looser than you.
What hands do you play?
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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TLS TIDALWAVE
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 9
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I play AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AKs - AJs, AKo - AJo. I will play other suited cards that are close connectors, when its cheap to get into the flop.
When I get one ot the above hands, I raise 90% of the time depending on positioning and number of raises before me.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dwarfman
40% is not tight by any stretch of imagination, you are seeing A LOT of flops.
I usually see maximum 20% (running hot) and minium 12% (running cold)
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Damn thats tight! Do you fold hands like AT most of the time?
I see the flop about 25-30% and this number has been increasing lately. Usually the fish pay off enough of my mediocre starting hands when they hit to justify playing them.
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TLS TIDALWAVE
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 9
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Depends on the sitution, but yes. If early in position, and table is loose or aggressive - Yes. If at late position and I can limp in - No.
I posted another post titled "Tournament Advice Please" - please respond to that - it explains. Thanks so much for your response.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLS TIDALWAVE
I play AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AKs - AJs, AKo - AJo. I will play other suited cards that are close connectors, when its cheap to get into the flop.
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You should be playing TT-22 for at least a limp everytime. They're just too damn profitable in these games, even if you have to fold pre-flop to a raise after limping every now and then.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLS TIDALWAVE
I play AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AKs - AJs, AKo - AJo. I will play other suited cards that are close connectors, when its cheap to get into the flop.
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Backing Fnord up, play any pocket pair (unless raised unreasonably preflop)! I know 22 seems like a weak hand, but a set of 2s is pretty strong, right? 12% of the time you're going to flop that set. If you're in an aggressive game, you could easily end up doubling up when that happens. You can even play pocket pairs to a raise, as long as that raise relative to the smaller of your and your opponent's stacks is less than 10% (i.e. you have $100 and he has $50 = call a raise of less than $5; you have $25 and he has $50 = call a raise of less than $2.50).
I personally will almost always play KQs from middle/late position. Sometimes raise with it. Late position I'll usually limp with KQo, KJ, KT, QJ, and any suited connectors above 45 (sometimes below...depends on the table).
My VP$IP of 26% is a tad high for the stakes I'd like to reach, but pretty dead on for the small stakes I'm curently playing.
- Jeffrey
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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I see between 12% and 20%, usually settling somewhere in the 15%- 17% range.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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Depends on the tightness of the people you're playing with. I'm noticing that as you move up in stakes, tightening up is needed.
And one of our NL players who's made on the order of 20k so far in 2005 posted that he's seeing 15% (over a sample of 30,000 hands). I can't argue with that. Can you?
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ville18
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo mama
Posts: 223
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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Really? Let's ask Ilikeaces 
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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I dont think you can say see the flop this much, etc. It all depends on how you feel most comfortable playing, and how you can counter how your opponents are playing. Some people are comfortable playing tight and others are comfortable playing loose, and they should generally stick to playing like that, but you ALWAYS need to adjust as much as you can to playing your opponents, and maximizing their mistakes and bad habits.
What im trying to get at is you need to change how loose and tight you are according to the table, but dont try to force anythign you cant do. Play your game.
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"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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25/50NL 10 player table on Prima poker has average flop seen 39%
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
25/50NL 10 player table on Prima poker has average flop seen 39% |
That just means that on average 4 people are seeing every flop. Doesn't mean anything on an individual basis.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
25/50NL 10 player table on Prima poker has average flop seen 39% |
That just means that on average 4 people are seeing every flop. Doesn't mean anything on an individual basis. |
oh yes it does! However these tables are probably often played shorthanded
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
25/50NL 10 player table on Prima poker has average flop seen 39% |
That just means that on average 4 people are seeing every flop. Doesn't mean anything on an individual basis. |
oh yes it does! However these tables are probably often played shorthanded |
Let's put it this way.... if 40% of the people are seeing the flop, that's a table I want to be at.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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studboyjoe
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 130
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Poker Tracker has a good stat called "voluntarily put $ into pot", which takes out the BBs that you see just because you're there. I'm at 23% over 10,000 hands and that includes my very first online games. I would think 20% VP$IP would be a good goal. Of course, the usual "it depends" apply.
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Sharky: I've got good news and bad.
me: what's the good?
Sharky: we all voted you Most Valuable Player!
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Sharky: It was at our weekly poker game!
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
25/50NL 10 player table on Prima poker has average flop seen 39% |
That just means that on average 4 people are seeing every flop. Doesn't mean anything on an individual basis. |
oh yes it does! However these tables are probably often played shorthanded |
Let's put it this way.... if 40% of the people are seeing the flop, that's a table I want to be at. |
Lets put it this way...Those players would rip you to pieces at a no limit table
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ville18
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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Really? Let's ask Ilikeaces |
He plays a shit-load of hands to compensate for the +EV situations he's missing out on by playing so rock-tastically
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Let's put it this way.... if 40% of the people are seeing the flop, that's a table I want to be at.
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Lets put it this way...Those players would rip you to pieces at a no limit table |
Dude, what makes you think jm can't hold his own at NL? I'm pretty confident he can, and I don't see where you're coming from on any of this.
For the record, I and the BR I've built from scratch in the last 2 months agree completely that 40% seeing the flop on a full table is a great place to be: it means on average everyone else is playing a lot of hands, which results in you being paid more when you only play your good hands. If you play the crap too, you'll end up doing just about as good and bad as the rest of the table (neglecting post flop skills).
Can you see a larger than 25% amount of the flops and be profitable? Yes. But for anyone who's not a super-agressive (term take from Dan Harrington) player, able to outplay anyone post-flop by a ton, this is going to lose money.
- Jeffrey
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Let's put it this way.... if 40% of the people are seeing the flop, that's a table I want to be at.
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Lets put it this way...Those players would rip you to pieces at a no limit table |
Dude, what makes you think jm can't hold his own at NL? I'm pretty confident he can, and I don't see where you're coming from on any of this.
- Jeffrey |
Since these are pretty much the highest stakes no limit tables on the internet they also attract the best players. They would rip me apart too
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Since these are pretty much the highest stakes no limit tables on the internet they also attract the best players. They would rip me apart too
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Sorry, read your post as NL25 / NL50. Didn't realize you were talking about $25/$50 blinds. That said, I'm very surprised by this. The high stakes games I've observed averaged 2-3 people (mid 20%) seeing the flop. That was on UB though...::shrugs::
- Jeffrey
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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I play .25/.50 on prima, i would consider myself quite successful there, i'd guess i play ~20% of my hands.
Side Note: There was a .25/.50 table yesterday, average number of people on a flop was 65%.......... i doubled up in like 4 seconds, then these two big stacks left (they were at like triple the buy-in, they were absolutely awful though, they gave me money like i was bullying steve erkel.) and the table dried up a lot. oh well, was awesome though.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ville18
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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Really? Let's ask Ilikeaces |
15-18% is ideal if I played less tables I would probably see around 18% but when I am doing a lot of tables I see around 15%. And my sample size is 300,000 not 30,000 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
well I guess it pays to be tight in limit holdem. I can't imagine that seeing less than 20% of the flops is a good thing in NL games
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Good LHE players run at least 15% VP$IP, depending on table texture, rake and blind structure.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Since these are pretty much the highest stakes no limit tables on the internet they also attract the best players. They would rip me apart too
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Sorry, read your post as NL25 / NL50. Didn't realize you were talking about $25/$50 blinds. That said, I'm very surprised by this. The high stakes games I've observed averaged 2-3 people (mid 20%) seeing the flop. That was on UB though...::shrugs::
- Jeffrey |
I misread that as well. Thought the same as Jeff. If I ever got up to that level then I would be forced to open up my game. As it is, at up to $100 NL which is where I play (along with up to 5/10 limit), my vp$p is right where I want it.
P.S - Thanks for sticking up for me, Jeff!
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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