Originally Posted by finky

I'd bet all those flops in any position. If I get more than 2 callers, thats when I slow down.

Originally Posted by finky

Yep, their range is huge at this point. Any PP or SC that dosen't hit auto-folds these flops and you'll take it down a high % of the time.

If your called or raised, then you can start playing poker.

Originally Posted by finky

I'm always happy to take down a raised pot with an underpair.

Originally Posted by finky

how do you know your relative hand strength unless you rep the board?

Originally Posted by finky

Then it depends on the board, position etc. Generally I'll be looking for a cheap showdown. I'm not too bothered about suckouts as I'm going to dump it to any serious aggression anyway.

Originally Posted by dev

So we bet and fold vs. any decent agro. It's not necessarily a value bet or a bluff, but it's right no matter what you label it.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What about the value you get from inducing bluffs from weaker hands?
.

Originally Posted by dev

Your hand may be good, but it's vulnerable. This is a situation where you want to end the hand quickly, and the perfect play may not be the best play for the situation.

I think the best explaination is in the math, so I'll take a specific situation.

NB:I'm guessing pretty bad at the hand percentages, so change them as you like, but I think we'll probably end up with the same conclusions.

You asked specifically about flop 3, so here goes:
:Ad:
Range for calling a preflop raise at lower limits (from 200nl-50nl and down depending on the site) would be something like any SC(15%), PP(25%), good aces(10%), random broadways(40%), Axs(5%), trash(5%).

SCs missed or hit the 9 and will probably fold(90%) or check/call(10%) it down. The perfect play is to bet and then check and fold because this hand will really only bet if it hits. If they're buying it, good for them.

PPs either missed and will fold (including kings)(90%) or they'll let you know(10%), so again we bet the flop then check/fold if we're called.

Good aces call here(100%), so the perfect play is to check/fold, but we need to know where we're at, so we bet first (math to come).

Random broadways call preflop at lower limits, they missed and they will fold(100%).

Axs checks and calls or bets back at you. We'll say you lose in a showdown, so 100% for a loss.

Trash folds (100%). If 93 called and hit, they play back and you put them on a set or a good ace and fold. This is rare enough that for the sake of this arguement, I'll toss it.

So:
We'll say there's 10 in the pot from a 4xbb raise, a caller and a blind.
You bet 7.50.
SCs fold 90% and check/call 10% so we have:
13% +10, 2% +17.50
PPs(25%) will fold 90% or win 10% so we have:
22% + 10, 3% -7.50
good aces and Axs are 15% total, and they win so:
15% -7.50
random broadways and trash(45%) fold so:
45% +10

All in all:
80% we win 10
2% we win 17.50
18% we lose 7.50
over 100 hands we are +700
remove the random broadways and trash we're like +350

So we bet and fold vs. any decent agro. It's not necessarily a value bet or a bluff, but it's right no matter what you label it.

Originally Posted by finky

Regardless of the accutacy of the calculations, HU you WILL take the pot down at least half the time probably much higher, if you bet less than the pot, your making money.

Originally Posted by PokerFreak

Basically, you have don't have a clear idea what you're up against on any of these flops. The only way to find out is by betting. If you're called or raised, you're probably beaten, and can give up on the hand.

Originally Posted by PokerFreak

It's not solely to find out if you're beat or not. It's to take down the pot when you're not, which is the majority of the time. It's the same principle as the cbet. You're telling your opponents to fold unless they have something. If they don't you can assume they have a hand, and go from there.

What are your other real options? Try to get a cheap showdown. If you check the flop, this is unlikely. You're opponents will bet with or without a hand once you show weakness.

Originally Posted by dev

When I said I was guessing, I followed up with a challenge for you to change the numbers as you saw fit. The mathematical aproach comes up with a rock solid answer, so use it!

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

A c-bet is a bluff. You want your opponent to fold when you c-bet. In these examples you have a good hand. It's not great, but it is good. The info you gain by betting is:

A) Oh gee I was way ahead of them. It would have been nice for them to try a weak bluff attempt and extract the most $ possible in this situation.
B) Oh crap they called. I must be way behind. Another bet down the drain.

Originally Posted by Renton

Betting out with QQ on ANY flop can't be considered a c-bet. Its really a feeler bet. And you don't only get called when you are beat. A lot of those boards had draws on them. A draw calls and we are ahead of a draw. I think a bet on a flop with QQ is a value bet until proven beat.

Originally Posted by dev

If you can't put your opponent on a hand or a range, you're never going to win much playing poker.

What answer were you looking for?

It's either bet the flop or check/fold. The bet has better EV. What else is there to discuss?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

I think the main point of discussion should be the fact that you are OK with being called only when you are way behind.

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

I c-bet any of these flops and most likely slow down on the turn if called.[/list]

Originally Posted by Renton

i think betting every one of these flops 100% of the time against a typical player is a leak

Originally Posted by myself

I have to respectfully disagree. I would say that not betting is a leak, it amounts to surrendering while possibly holding the best hand. Many, many times you will be called preflop with hands like 66, KQ and such and the ace on the flop is their reason to fold.

Originally Posted by Renton

Imagine this. You opponent called preflop with 66. If you bet the flop, he folds here most of the time unless he thinks you are full of crap.

Originally Posted by Renton

But if you occasionaly check behind this flop against villain with 66, he might bet out the turn with the worst hand to try and pick the pot up. Depending on his betting pattern you can then decide if HE has the ace or not and act accordingly, thereby extracting greater value from the best hand.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

I think the main point of discussion should be the fact that you are OK with being called only when you are way behind.

Originally Posted by gabe

the only one i always bet is #6, sometimes ill bet #1

Originally Posted by gabe

the only one i always bet is #6, sometimes ill bet #1

Originally Posted by finky

Are you not concerned about leaking information, not just in this hand but in the future?