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How is my postflop play? Some hands from 5NL

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02-01-2009, 01:33 PM Post subject: How is my postflop play? Some hands from 5NL

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2008

Posts: 108

Im not using a HUD so no real reads on the players in these hands unfortunately. Playing 5NL Im not actively putting players on ranges unless they are regs that I have seen before because a lot of the hands that get played are just so random.

Hand 1:

Is this fold ok? I was tempted to shove here, but I wasnt quite getting the odds to stay in this hand

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.41)
MP ($5.52)
CO ($2.63)
Button ($10.82)
SB ($9.95)
Hero (BB) ($5.98)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, K

UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, UTG raises to $0.55, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.67) 6

, J

, 10

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.90, CO calls $2.08 (All-In), Hero folds

Hand 2:

This hand is a mess. The preflop call was pretty loose, not really sure how to assess my play on all 3 streets....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($10.03)
SB ($8.53)
BB ($1.75)
UTG ($11.17)
Hero (MP) ($11.13)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, J

UTG raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.37) Q

, 9

, 2

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.87) 5

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.50, UTG calls $0.50

River: ($1.87) 8

(2 players)
UTG bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Total pot: $4.37 | Rake: $0.20

Hand 3:

Steal attempt pre, I found it a bit hard to lay down TPNK on the flop after the villain had just limped in....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($9.44)
BB ($6.32)
UTG ($9.86)
MP ($10.12)
Hero (Button) ($9.27)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7

, 8

1 fold, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.28, BB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.95) 2

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
SB bets $0.05, BB raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold

Turn: ($2.20) 6

(2 players)
BB bets $1.05, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.20 | Rake: $0.10

Hand 4:

When the flush hits should I be trying to get more money in, or should I be worried about a higher flush?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($8.49)
MP ($8.59)
CO ($9.59)
Button ($9.93)
SB ($10)
Hero (BB) ($10.49)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

, 9

UTG calls $0.05, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.12) 10

, K

, 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.10, UTG raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.52) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, UTG raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($2.12) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

Total pot: $2.22 | Rake: $0.10

Hand 5:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($11.08)
UTG ($9.38)
MP ($10.60)
CO ($3.02)
Hero (Button) ($4.69)
SB ($3.93)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, Q

2 folds, CO calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.77) 3

, 3

, K

(3 players)
BB checks, CO bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.37) 4

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.20, CO raises to $2.47 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $3.77 | Rake: $0.15

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AFchung

02-01-2009, 02:24 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

hand 1 - fold pre. utg limp + re-raise screams KK/AA

hand 2 - fold preflop, we are behind his UTG range

hand 3 - fold to flop bet. why are you calling this flop when you're just going to fold on the turn even if a blank hits? that's spewing

hand 4 - re-raise that turn. we want to pump money in here and not let a broadway club get there. yes we're paying off flush over flushes when theres 3 suited cards out. not only am i re-raising turn, but also stacking off on any non club river

hand 5 - i check behind this turn and try to get to showdown. we're not folding out any better hands by betting

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jyms

02-01-2009, 02:45 PM

#3 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

No, hand 1 we shove. we have tons of outs, the pot is $6.70 or so with only about $2bucks effective remaining in UTG's stack and he doesn't have just AA or KK here, he has AJ, QQ or any other hand he wants to play.

hand 2 is probably fine. the pot is controlled and we really can't fold to that bet. If he has a set or a bigger Q then sucks to be him he didn't get paid. Take a note how he plays this hand. Betting the turn is standard becasue we want to bet all of our bigger hands and bluffs here too.

Hand 3 Hero folds pre. Obviously you can't read the blinds because they both called your steal attempt and the limper. Steal with hands that have some equity when called, like suited gappers and Kxs instead of UnSC. As played get the hell out on the flop, it was a steal attempt, your 4way and have fuck all, why try to give them money. What do you think your gonna beat?

hand 4, no way I let him see a showdown with his hand that cheaply. I raise and rpobably call depending on reads, if he has a higher flush I pay it, no way at $5NL am I worried about that. He pays lighter. Sets, 2 pair or even Ac thinks you can fold. And yea raise the turn, any Ac iscalling most bets.

Hand 5? What hands are continuing to your bet on the turn? Are you getting paid by worse. Get to showdown.

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swiggidy

02-01-2009, 03:09 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Hand 2 - Fold pre. I would snap open fold this UTG+1 so calling a raise is suicide.
You're probably calling with way to many hands.

Hand 3 - too add to what Jym said. Your raise size sucks donkey balls. It's only 1/2 the pot so you're giving basically everything odds to call and you're building a big pot with a weak hand.

I don't care for the raise pre either unless the blinds are both very tight. Standard should be fold, but raise 78s maybe.

Hand 5 - You bet 1/2 his remaining stack on the turn. At this point poker becomes easier in a sense. You know that if he pushes you're getting 4:1 to call. So with >20% equity it would be easy. Putting that much in the middle and folding is teh gross.

As played do you need to pot it IF you're bluffing? I would think 75c would elicit a fold as much as $1.20. Saving your self 10bb and not having as sick pot odds when you fold (note: this does not imply we should be betting the turn in this hand)

Also, look at his flop line, donk betting 1/2 the pot. I would expect him to bet 50c on the river if I checked and I'm comfortable calling that down, even though I'm behind a lot (spite call maybe?)

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(='.'=)
(")_(")

Robb

02-01-2009, 04:51 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

First, nice job posting these hands. Your suspicions were, in fact, correct. There are some HUGE leaks here. But reading through the above posts is going to help that. Here are my thoughts.

Hand 1: As played, you DO HAVE odds to call. Jym's "shove the flop yourself" is even better and will often fold out made hands like QQ. You really need to work on your understanding of pot odds, implied odds and fold equity. If you don't know what some of these terms mean, either post a reply here or pm me.

Hand 2: Not horrible. I prefer raising the flop instead of calling it, if I plan to put any more chips in. As played, I check behind the turn and call a cheap river. A lot of this is read-based. He'll miss this flop a bunch and barrel it with a cbet, so allowing this hand to develop isn't bad especially if he's a 80% cbet type. Still, you can't auto-flat QJo preflop. You need deep effective stacks and a reason (based on reads) to believe you can outplay this TAGG postflop. 'Cuz it's gonna suck when he has KQ here and you need to get away from it. What swig said is true - you're probably flat calling way too much preflop, and it makes for tough spots.

Hand 3: Don't try to steal without SOME high card / big hand value. Keep your stealing range to two cards 9+, Ax, some sc's, Kxs and K9+ - - unless you have read on BOTH players in the blinds. Two reasons for this. First, you won't have to roll over and play dead when you get called/raised. Second, when you do catch a piece of the flop you'll have decent equity most of the time. Then you'll be able to leverage your position and equity to outplay your opponents. Think about this - you gained almost zero equity in this pot by hitting the flop, and the "hit flop" had you putting more chips in. Sucks, don't it? So steal with the good stealing hands and not with low card junk.

Hand 4: Don't get involved with 94s on the flop if you're not happy shoving all the chips in when your 9-high flush comes in.

Hand 5: Probably the time check behind a turn for pot control. I hate to play pot control, personally, but big preflop hands like JJ and QQ lose much of their value on Axx and Kxx flops. We're just not happy getting into a big pot any more. Time to turtle up, imo.

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Biglines

02-01-2009, 05:50 PM

#6 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2008

Posts: 108

Thanks for all the responses, this stuff is awesome!

I do in fact understand pot odds, implied odds and fold equity. For some reason I forgot to count the 3 K's and 3 Q's as outs on hand 1, which obviously totally changes things.

bigspenda73

02-01-2009, 05:55 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

no, do not count those as outs

any of the 14 outs someone my think you have are to be HEAVILY DISCOUNTED in hand 1. I'm going to say we'll have somewhere from 20%-30% equity when we get the money in. The BEST equity we can have is going to be 41% against QQ not to mention we have 31% against KK and against AK we have around 28% equity and against AA we have 23% equity.

The guy limp-minraised PF and then overbet the flop, he's got a big hand and unfortunately for us all of those hands take away enough of our equity to make getting the money in wrong.

Robb

02-01-2009, 07:35 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Spenda, the CO is all-in, and he needs only 40% equity to get it all-in good against all opponents on the flop.

I agree with your point about the equity against QQ+ and AK, but limp/rr pre is serious FPS, and I haven't personally faced opponents at 10nl and lower who could be disciplined enough to restrict their range. As soon as it's in their arsenal, their range tends expand, in my experience. I guess I'm not really convinced the limp/rr'er can only have one of 4 hands. But you usually have a good feel for this sort of thing, so I'll just say that the OP should probably lean toward your analysis, and "discount" mine.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

bigspenda73

02-01-2009, 07:43 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

stove our equity vs TT+,AK

Robb

02-01-2009, 07:44 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

i did and it freakin' sucks - i'm pretty sad about it, too

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

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