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Pocket Aces
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07-01-2008, 02:19 AM
Post subject: How much do you raise?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4
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I was just wondering what everyone's standard raise is pre-flop. If you have AA, KK, in EP, how much do you raise? What about with hands like QQ and JJ?
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poker_pup
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 130
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Any hand I'm going to raise preflop, I raise 4x the big blind.
A lot of good players raise 4 times the big blind plus one big blind per limper.
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Pocket Aces
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by poker_pup
Any hand I'm going to raise preflop, I raise 4x the big blind.
A lot of good players raise 4 times the big blind plus one big blind per limper.
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What about with hands like AQ, JJ, 10 10? Still 4x BB in EP?
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animal_chin
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the grind slavin' daily.
Posts: 180
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pocket Aces
Quote:
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Originally Posted by poker_pup
Any hand I'm going to raise preflop, I raise 4x the big blind.
A lot of good players raise 4 times the big blind plus one big blind per limper.
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What about with hands like AQ, JJ, 10 10? Still 4x BB in EP? |
yes.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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A standard raise preflop is 4xbb + 1bb per limper, so I highly suggest you do that.
A standard Re-raise preflop is 3x-4x the original raise amount.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Before saying anything else, let me just join everyone else in saying that there is nothing wrong in using the same bet size - if you assign a pattern to your bet sizes it is a pattern people might be able to understand and then suddenly you are playing with your pocket cards plain to see.
That said - on the topic of varying bet sizes:
In one of those selections of 'pro tips' I saw one from Phil Gordon where he suggested to vary bet sizes based on position - where he bet 2.5bb or so from UTG up to 4bb or so from the button. His basic idea I think is to play a smaller pot out of position than in position.
Similarly I often see people suggesting that if they re-raise they re-raise to 3x the previous bet if they expect to be IN position and to 4x the previous bet if they expect to be OUT of position.
If you use the same bet size always you are probably making a small error in the worst case and you are much harder to read.
If you do choose to vary bet sizes - don't do it based on your cards - ever.
Couple examples. Let's say I've noticed that when I play AA or KK people often fold the blinds to me. I want calls. When I play JJ or TT people often call me and outflop me so I end up losing money. To 'fix' this I bet my AA and KK 2.5bb and my JJ and TT 5bb to get more calls on my AA and KK hands and fewer calls on my JJ and TT hands. All other hands I use a normal 4bb raise.
The first couple of times I vary my bet sizes as described I note that I've managed to manipulate my opponents responses in exactly the way I hoped. I get fewer calls on TT and JJ and I get more calls on AA and KK. Yay me. However, before long people will have taken notes - and now they KNOW that if I play 2.5bb then I have either KK or AA, they take a cheap flop and only continue if they have a hand that is better than an overpair or a strong draw to improve to something better than an overpair - and they can play their hand completely optimally knowing exactly what I hold. Now when I have AA EVERYONE knows it and I will only win small pots and lose big pots with it. By varying bet sizes I make AA, KK, JJ and TT all much less profitable (or more unprofitable) because it is so painfully transparent.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
In one of those selections of 'pro tips' I saw one from Phil Gordon where he suggested to vary bet sizes based on position - where he bet 2.5bb or so from UTG up to 4bb or so from the button. His basic idea I think is to play a smaller pot out of position than in position.
Similarly I often see people suggesting that if they re-raise they re-raise to 3x the previous bet if they expect to be IN position and to 4x the previous bet if they expect to be OUT of position. |
This is very interesting to me.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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I am not quite sure how the in position / out of position argument SHOULD go, but I definitely managed to make two separate and opposite points. One would think that they can't both be right.
I seem to remember thinking that the OOP argument for a small bet size when first in has to do with working with a small pot as you expect to be lower EV than if playing the same hand in position. When in position and first to act you just want to start juicing the pot you're in a good position to take down.
I think the OOP 3bet being bigger than IP could have something to do with fold equity - when OOP you'd rather get the pre-flop fold, whereas when IP you'd rather get the pre-flop call. Or maybe I'm just exactly wrong on this one.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Harrington seems to recommend 3-4.5xBB and vary it up, so they can't read what is in your hand. For example, if you always raise AA 4.5xBB, they will always know when you lead out with it...
My thought is the same as everyone else... except at micro stakes... 3xBB won't even get noticed as a raise in micro stakes... I've found that you have to go 5xBB to 7xBB at the .01/.02 level to even get noticed as raising.
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pokerscow
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
Before saying anything else, let me just join everyone else in saying that there is nothing wrong in using the same bet size - if you assign a pattern to your bet sizes it is a pattern people might be able to understand and then suddenly you are playing with your pocket cards plain to see.
That said - on the topic of varying bet sizes:
In one of those selections of 'pro tips' I saw one from Phil Gordon where he suggested to vary bet sizes based on position - where he bet 2.5bb or so from UTG up to 4bb or so from the button. His basic idea I think is to play a smaller pot out of position than in position.
Similarly I often see people suggesting that if they re-raise they re-raise to 3x the previous bet if they expect to be IN position and to 4x the previous bet if they expect to be OUT of position.
If you use the same bet size always you are probably making a small error in the worst case and you are much harder to read.
If you do choose to vary bet sizes - don't do it based on your cards - ever.
Couple examples. Let's say I've noticed that when I play AA or KK people often fold the blinds to me. I want calls. When I play JJ or TT people often call me and outflop me so I end up losing money. To 'fix' this I bet my AA and KK 2.5bb and my JJ and TT 5bb to get more calls on my AA and KK hands and fewer calls on my JJ and TT hands. All other hands I use a normal 4bb raise.
The first couple of times I vary my bet sizes as described I note that I've managed to manipulate my opponents responses in exactly the way I hoped. I get fewer calls on TT and JJ and I get more calls on AA and KK. Yay me. However, before long people will have taken notes - and now they KNOW that if I play 2.5bb then I have either KK or AA, they take a cheap flop and only continue if they have a hand that is better than an overpair or a strong draw to improve to something better than an overpair - and they can play their hand completely optimally knowing exactly what I hold. Now when I have AA EVERYONE knows it and I will only win small pots and lose big pots with it. By varying bet sizes I make AA, KK, JJ and TT all much less profitable (or more unprofitable) because it is so painfully transparent. |
Thanks 
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I usually open with 3 to 5bb - depending more on position and number of limpers than my hand.
Let's say I'm playing full ring, there's one limper and I have AA on the CO, I'll pretty much always raise 3bb in that spot. I really want callers with aces. NLHE is a game of pairs mostly, so you might get very good value if someone hits top pair with his rags. If you only raise big with big hands, you will attract set miners. You don't want that.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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another reason I have read for betting less in early position is that your cards have implied strength (due to position and its implied opening range) and therefore you don't need to bet so much. Whereas in later positions you are playing a wider range and need to bet more to encourage folding.
Seeing as you want to cbet nearly as much as possible I prefer just betting the same amount each time (4x+1per limper) then I don't have to second guess myself or level myself trying to be cute with adjusting my preflop raise, all I have to ask myself is am I raising which keeps things nice and simple.
In the SB or BB if there is a limper or two and I want to raise I will raise another bb to encourage folding, as I pretty much know I will be oop for the rest of the hand and the last thing I want is the pot to be multiway as well.
For those people who vary their bet sizing wierdly I will be trying to make notes on their hands they do it with as soon as possible to try to get a read. Some people like to make the pot big as possible with their big hands while others like to encourage callers, habitually doing either is bad as it gives away info.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Online 6 max - 3x
Live full ring - As much as I can get away with
It's about pot control and what you're trying to accomplish. Online I want to open lots of pots to put pressure on the blinds. I also want lots of money behind if I'm 3-bet. Live, I just want to play a big pot and 3-bet ranges are pretty LoL.
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