Originally Posted by OhBollocks

The 4bet on the flop tells me Im normally way behind, so why do I usually feel commited here?

Originally Posted by Mezza Morta

Against an unknown, I'm folding TPTK to a 3-bet on the flop when stacks are deep. Call me a nit. Everything else is circumstantial.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

...'cause by the time you've 3-bet him on the flop, you pretty much are...

Take this for the noobie 2cents it's worth... I spent more time than most at $10NL (over 225K hands...), and when it comes to TPTK type hands, I really think you're picking between two generally broad options -- play them hard, fast and for stacks or, unimproved, lean towards pot control and smaller pots. I say this as broad approach, recognizing all the it depends, opponent specific, board texture, reads, yadda yadda.

All that being said, and I'm prolly gonna get yelled at here, but I found naked TPTK to be a vulnerable hand at $10NL to play for stacks. So in my mind it was a choice...

1. Play 'em hard, fast and for stacks -- Advantage is taking money from fools stacking off w/ worse pairs and busted draws that don't improve by SD. Disadvantage is you will donk your stack into sets consistently, lose stacks to the "wish-a-flush" crowd, blah blah. This approach can be +EV, but higher volatility. Your hand here is a good example of this -- if I was vil I would have happily stacked off with a bunch of hands on this flop (66, JJ, AKs, AQs, AJ, Ax or Kx flush draw, Jx or 6x flush draw). Would play the line a bit different, but end result is the same.
2. Pot control unimproved -- Advantage is lower volatility and smaller losses. In this example, call the min-raise and re-evaluate on the Turn. Wouldn't save you from the boat in this case, but may make you think twice if a spade peels off or a Q etc. You have some room to move (and improve...) before committing. Disadvantage is you leave money on the table by giving up on TPTK hands where you really were ahead. This can also be +EV with less volatility.

Which is technically better long-term? F-k if I know... I think if you're okay with the way hands like this turn out, and are consistently aggressive w/ TPTK, your okay long-term at $10 but roll with the volatility. You don't like the volatility? Try considering TPTK as a "small pot" hand unimproved, and play it accordingly. Then this kinda sh!t is less bothersome...

Originally Posted by iopq

you got MINRAISED on the flop
that's a "hi, I have the nuts, what do you have" bet

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I think one of the attractions for me is that I know Im not a good post flop player so while im still working on pf game its nice to have most of my decisions made by the flop.

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

I guess playing it hard and fast with 100bb, you just cant avoid the sets. Amirite in thinking you need to slow it down with TPTK as you move up?

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Thought about playing with 60-70bb stack? Makes commitment decisions easier and (my experience at least...) has been that it irons out some of the post-flop wrinkles while still leaving you deep enough to not just be playing binary short-stack poker. You still need to plan your hand and use some good, basic post-flop skills, but takes some of heavy lifting out of the toughest streets. Just a thought....

My only experience has been my first 50K hands at $25 (running +3.5bb/100 so far FWIW...) It's not night and day difference, but you do see better post-flop play, people less willing to stack off with worse hands and people who are able to put you to more difficult decisions. Other than that, a lot of the same.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I normally dodge to the left, but sometimes I like to balance my play and dodge to the right. I also try to duck occassionally, -EV in isolation but its good for metagame.