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Raoni_Poker
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03-23-2009, 06:04 PM
Post subject: How do you read you online opponents?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 265
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Hi all,
This thread reflects perhaps one of the leaks on my game (since I dont have any statistical tool to help me with that).
Of course, some signs like betting patterns or the time you use to think can provide some clues of what can be happening. However, in online games it is easily to provide fake signs, like spending some time to bet when ou have the nuts...it would be a fake sign of weakness (I mean, I have done that successfully).
Some might say that the chat also can offer valuable information (to be honest, I dont think so).
So, here is the big question:
What you usually do to read your online opponents?
Is it possible to do it effectively just by observing them (without tools)?
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Taicho
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 102
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I really just rely on betting patterns and their style of play. Timing tells are usually unreliable but occasionally they can help; if you pick up a semi-reliable timing tell and you're really on the fence about whether you should fold or call, it can help tip the scales in one direction.
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St8ofN8
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 60
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If I'm not using PT or HEM I keep notes on the players at the table and I also spend time reviewing previous hands (even if I'm not in them) to see their patterns. Its the best you can do w/o tools.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Your question assumes something that isn't really true, and that is that live poker is really dominated by physical tells. Physical tells are not unimportant, but they are really secondary to understanding how people bet, what tendencies they have, and what hands or ranges they are representing.
And that same method works online, whether or not you use software. Learn how people approach different sorts of hands, and use that information to narrow their ranges.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Betting patterns > Physical Tells. MUCH more reliable.
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ryokan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 119
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I like to look at any hand that goes to showdown on my table (or tables), cause i can see how a person played the full hand. there's a ton of information to be mined there. if only i did it more often lol.
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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Take notes. I never knew what kind of notes to take until I watched Spenda's vids.
Watch some of Spenda's videos and take note of the notes he takes.
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"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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S1x
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 44
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Until I make enough to afford one of those poker tools, I've been sort of disciplining myself by concentrating on how people bet even when I'm not in a hand, and I usually can type down a couple decent notes when some hands get shown down. It sometimes gets boring just watching, but it is handy to know if somebody is betting really small because they're weak or because they have the nuts.
The only time I use time as a tell is when somebody instantly checks (they likely used a button and probably fold to anything) or they take a long time against a big bet to them (the longer they take, the weaker their hand probably is). This is less important than the above though.
Even though it may not matter too much, I pause a couple seconds even if I instantly know what I'm going to do, just because it's a habit of mine in live games.
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Raoni_Poker
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 265
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Thank you all for the comments...
Observing can be quite a difficult task if you are in multiple tables...i've been there! (and I play 3 tables maximum!)
Actually, in these cases...the strength of you hand seems something much valuable to support your decisions.
About tells (in online and live poker)...I tend to think they are overestimated aspects o the game when it comes to make correct decisions. But still...in terms of betting patterns, it amazes me how some people are pretty accurate in putting someone in a range of hands. Sometimes I try to guess my opponents hands...but only in the guessing level....not a result of a concious effort or my observational skills.
Dont ask me how...sometimes i'm right about opponents hands...in te guessing level, obviously.
I wonder how a good player does it...if someone can share experiences or just tell me how do you do it...be my guest!
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T-Rex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 119
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all the people who say Betting patterns > physical tells ...just cant read people in live games
seriously if u could read people in live u would understand its not just phsyical tells its a really weird 6th since and feeling that is amazing haha so physical tell over betting patterns FOR SURE
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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With opponents who have standard lines (for IP and OOP), a change in line coupled with a timing tell is often significant. Read the player and the board to find out what that means. If a nit does pause/minbet on an AK flop, more often than not you will be beat.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by T-Rex
all the people who say Betting patterns > physical tells ...just cant read people in live games
seriously if u could read people in live u would understand its not just phsyical tells its a really weird 6th since and feeling that is amazing haha so physical tell over betting patterns FOR SURE
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Definitely don't agree. I think those instincts that you are speaking of kick in when something is odd about villain's betting pattern...not due to anything physical.
And I too find it difficult to read opponents at microstakes. I feel as if they are in a hand with anything. I get beaten by small hands that I always ask, "How did he stay in the hand?" I am working on it though...but I know it's going to be a long road ahead.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by T-Rex
all the people who say Betting patterns > physical tells ...just cant read people in live games
seriously if u could read people in live u would understand its not just phsyical tells its a really weird 6th since and feeling that is amazing haha so physical tell over betting patterns FOR SURE
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I invite you to come down to one of the LA-area casinos, and I will sit you down at a table and you can get a feel for how helpful physical tells are.
It isn't that they aren't helpful at all. Every once in awhile, I make a decent play because of one. (For instance, in limit, some players are already throwing out their chips to raise while I am still stacking my chips to bet. If I am not really interested in putting 2 bets into the pot given my hand and the range I put the villain on, I may decide to check based on the other player's physical tell. And occasionally I run into a player who always gets nervous when he has a big hand, or, alternatively, always gets nervous when he is betting with air.)
But in contrast, in just about EVERY hand I am in, I am making use of information about betting patterns, playing styles, tendencies, and what this information says about players' likely ranges or even likely hands.
The way I would put it is this. I could be a winning poker player without ever utilizing physical tells in my poker play. But I could not be a winning player without utilizing betting patterns, playing styles, tendencies, and reads. That's why betting patterns > physical tells.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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obviously betting patters are far superior to all the other tells combined (probably even more so than players stats if you can count that as a tell). BUT since you asked, how long it takes for someone to check or call or anything like that doesn't tell you diddly about the STRENGTH of their hand (thepokerbank taught me that if they wait then check then they have nothing and if they wait then bet then they have a lot, and i used that advise and i got pwned). what it can tell you though is how much they're considering their hand.
if a fish waits a long time and then minraises then you have to be cautious (notice i said be cautious not give up on your hand 'cause he has a monster) because he probably is actually trying to figure out betsizing which is a thorough thought process for fish. a long wait and then check OOP is harder to read because it can either mean that they're thinking hard about whether or not they should bluff or it means that they're thinking long about whether or not they should c/r or just bet out. i wouldn't let this change how you make your next play (you should still cBet if you were going to anyway for example), but if he insta-folds or if he insta-pushes then you should take note either way.
NONE OF THIS ADVISE TRUMPS STATS OR BETTING PATTERS, but they are things worth considering. you should rely on your instincts more than your intellect when it comes to these reads and you shouldn't let you make any untraditional plays.
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