How do you not lose money when raising most of the time preflop?

From what I read most people say that you should be raising around 70-80% of the time pre-flop with the hands you're going to play, and of course this does seem like a great idea to ensure you kick out all the week hands before the flop comes, however doesn't checking on the flop after raising pre-flop come accross a bit silly?

If you're raising 80% of the time pre-flop with high aggression with hands such as suited connectors, KQ, AK, AQ, QJ etc; obviously you're only ever going to get a piece of the flop a 3rd of the time, so what do you do when you don't make the flop?

I understand about c-betting, but I also hear that doing this time and time again can become a major leak in your game, and can become predictable. So if you're not c-betting the 80% of the time you're raising preflop what do you do on the flop? check?

This is one thing which has been bugging me for a few days now as I really want to play an aggressive game which obviously starts preflop, but I don't want to feel pot committed on the flop everytime.

First off, you don't raise preflop to kick out the weaker hands. That would be silly. We raise because we want to get value from weaker hands. Start with that...

I agree, but isn't it a two way street? You raise to get value and possible fold equity? People always say to me that by raising you have more ways to win a hand because people may fold.

An oversimplified version:

If you raise with a better hand, you're raising to get value from worse hands.

If you raise with a worse hand, you're raising to get fold equity from better hands.

Ok thanks, but how does this apply to post-flop play? If you haven't hit the board wouldn't people pick up on the fact you may have a weak hand if you check? Or should you always bet after raising preflop?

As people are saying, you never want to make a weaker hand fold to you. You want to get as many of that player's chips into the pot as they're willing to put there. That's how you win. Also, you win by not putting chips into the pot when your opponent has a better hand than you. Of course, you may bluff or be bluffed, but as a beginner, that's a complication that we can talk about later.

In poker, winning is the same as not losing. At the end of the day, whether you won $100 more dollars or lost $100 fewer dollars, the result to your bankroll is the same (it would have $100 more dollars than it does).

***
You may not understand the 80% either.

It's not recommended that you play 80% of hands that are dealt to you. It's recommending that when you DO play a hand, that you play it aggressively.

Let's say your range for UTG is { 99+, AQ+ }. That's only about 5% of all possible starting hands. When you get dealt one of these hands UTG, then you should probably raise with it. Even if you raise 100% of the time with that range, you're really only raising 5% of all hands.

***
Just because you do not have a pair on the flop does not mean you have the worst hand. You are only going to make a pair 1/3 of the time, but so is your opponent. That 1/3 is evenly broken up into when you do and don't have a pair, so it's the same in either case.

This means that whether or not you have a pair on the flop, the chance of your opponent having a pair is ~1/3.

Originally Posted by GreatLeslie

Ok thanks, but how does this apply to post-flop play? If you haven't hit the board wouldn't people pick up on the fact you may have a weak hand if you check? Or should you always bet after raising preflop?

This is generally very complicated, but as a beginner, rely on bet/fold.

If you're playing the micro-stakes, then you can pretty safely bet most flops and fold to a raise. This is true on all streets. Since noobs don't know when to bluff, they either do it too little or too much. Meaning that they are either folding to too many of your bets, or they're raising too many of your bets. Either way, it will stand out to you.

If a player folds too much, keep on keeping on with the C-bets. They're printing you money. Just KNOW that when that opponent doesn't fold, you're almost definitely losing the hand... they fold too much, so when they don't fold, they're extra strong.

If a player calls too much, or raises you back too much, then your play is still easy. You can lay off the C-bets and start taking free cards from this guy (assuming you're playing him IP).

When your opponents are passive, you make money by being aggressive. When your opponents are aggressive, you make money by playing more passively. In the first case, you are bluffing them off of any value they may have against you, and in the 2nd case you are choosing free cards with high implied odds.

In both cases, you are reacting to them, which is the goal.

***
All of this is a simple example that illustrates that you can't give helpful poker advice without a bit of knowledge about the Villains. This should motivate the hell out of you to start studying your opponents as much if not more than you study yourself.

Originally Posted by GreatLeslie

Ok thanks, but how does this apply to post-flop play? If you haven't hit the board wouldn't people pick up on the fact you may have a weak hand if you check? Or should you always bet after raising preflop?

There are a lot of factors here. One is the number of players who call your preflop raise to see a flop with you. If you're heads up then a lot of flops are textured such that it looks like you both missed and a c-bet on the flop isn't the worst thing in the world. For example, you have AK and a middle position caller has KJ. The flop is 2 5 8. You didn't hit but you're still ahead.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

As people are saying, you never want to make a weaker hand fold to you. You want to get as many of that player's chips into the pot as they're willing to put there. That's how you win. Also, you win by not putting chips into the pot when your opponent has a better hand than you. Of course, you may bluff or be bluffed, but as a beginner, that's a complication that we can talk about later.

In poker, winning is the same as not losing. At the end of the day, whether you won $100 more dollars or lost $100 fewer dollars, the result to your bankroll is the same (it would have $100 more dollars than it does).

***
You may not understand the 80% either.

It's not recommended that you play 80% of hands that are dealt to you. It's recommending that when you DO play a hand, that you play it aggressively.

Let's say your range for UTG is { 99+, AQ+ }. That's only about 5% of all possible starting hands. When you get dealt one of these hands UTG, then you should probably raise with it. Even if you raise 100% of the time with that range, you're really only raising 5% of all hands.

***
Just because you do not have a pair on the flop does not mean you have the worst hand. You are only going to make a pair 1/3 of the time, but so is your opponent. That 1/3 is evenly broken up into when you do and don't have a pair, so it's the same in either case.

This means that whether or not you have a pair on the flop, the chance of your opponent having a pair is ~1/3.

Thanks for your insight, the BIB however I think you misunderstood. I know not to play 80% of my hands, that would be ludicrous, but meant raising 80% of the times you want to play a hand.

Originally Posted by Eric

There are a lot of factors here. One is the number of players who call your preflop raise to see a flop with you. If you're heads up then a lot of flops are textured such that it looks like you both missed and a c-bet on the flop isn't the worst thing in the world. For example, you have AK and a middle position caller has KJ. The flop is 2 5 8. You didn't hit but you're still ahead.

Yes, I agree with this and I am fairly knowledgeable with board texture, but if a wet board such as 346 came up and you had pocket K10, you wouldn't want to continuation bet would you? And if you did check instead of betting, wouldn't that be a massive tell to your opponent that you didn't hit anything or make any kind of draw?

You spend far too much time thinking about your actual hand. Unless you go to showdown your actual holdings will never matter in these situations. Is raising preflop, getting called and Cbetting most boards going to make you money or lose moeny? What is your opponent calling preflop raises with, what are they calling flop bets with and what are yours and their ranges are so much more important

The EV of raising first in tight/tough game is mostly from winning the blinds without a flop. Thus, in games like this you should open for a small size with a wide range from most positions.

The EV of raising first in a loose/fishy game is mostly from value betting and semi-bluffing effectively postflop. Thus, in games like this (for example in all brick and mortar games) you should open for 4-6x the big blind with a strong range from all positions.

Originally Posted by GreatLeslie

Yes, I agree with this and I am fairly knowledgeable with board texture, but if a wet board such as 346 came up and you had pocket K10, you wouldn't want to continuation bet would you?

Maybe. It depends on lots of factors. This is why I prefer looking at individual hands as opposed to making general statements.

Originally Posted by GreatLeslie

And if you did check instead of betting, wouldn't that be a massive tell to your opponent that you didn't hit anything or make any kind of draw?

It depends on many factors like our opponent, our table image and our starting stack size.

If I am go into a hand pre-flop when someone raised, you can guarantee that after the flop, there will be a raise one way or another. Either my opponent is going to raise or check. I will raise if my opponent does not, because I live by the c-bet whether I hit the flop or not. And I hope my aggressive pre-flop raiser did not hit the flop, so I am trying to get him to fold with my raise.

I also c-bet for another reason. I c-bet because I am trying to get value. Ideally, I prefer no one folds and people remain in the hand. I get yelled at by so many of my railers that I am not going to force anyone to fold with a c-bet. My intent is not to get anyone to fold. I am raising the value of the pot, making my opponent pay to see each card.

I strive to play 20 percent of my hands, some days I am in more than 20 percent, other days I play less than 20 percent of my hands.

If I am playing an agro player, I just figure, I am sitting at a higher limit table and play accordingly, i.e. if my opponent is raising the blinds 3x every hand, I will eventually leave the table or sit there and stop folding pre-flop hands that I would not normally play.

Originally Posted by eberetta1

If I am go into a hand pre-flop when someone raised, you can guarantee that after the flop, there will be a raise one way or another. Either my opponent is going to raise or check. I will raise if my opponent does not, because I live by the c-bet whether I hit the flop or not. And I hope my aggressive pre-flop raiser did not hit the flop, so I am trying to get him to fold with my raise.

I also c-bet for another reason. I c-bet because I am trying to get value. Ideally, I prefer no one folds and people remain in the hand. I get yelled at by so many of my railers that I am not going to force anyone to fold with a c-bet. My intent is not to get anyone to fold. I am raising the value of the pot, making my opponent pay to see each card.

after 5 years as a member how can your terminology be so wrong ? opponent is going to bet or check not raise. this then leads into confusion for any reader . Are you raising if he bets or are you betting if he checks. You aren't cbetting if opponent was the pre flop raiser. You make no reference at all to flop texture and how flop texture interacts with your and his range.

If you are betting with the intention of getting opponent to fold ....how is that betting for value ? betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

Originally Posted by Keith

after 5 years as a member how can your terminology be so wrong ? opponent is going to bet or check not raise. this then leads into confusion for any reader . Are you raising if he bets or are you betting if he checks. You aren't cbetting if opponent was the pre flop raiser. You make no reference at all to flop texture and how flop texture interacts with your and his range.

If you are betting with the intention of getting opponent to fold ....how is that betting for value ? betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

Keith: Are you raising if he bets.
Eberetta1: No, I am folding 80 percent of the time and shoving 20 percent of the time.

Keith: Are you betting if he checks?
Eberaetta1: yes.

Keith: You make no reference at all to flop texture.
Eberetta1: There is no need to reference flop texture. I believe OP is dealing with betting style of villain. Villain is playing maniac style and just wants get hero to fold a winning hand. If hero chases anything other than a made hand on the flop, it will cost dearly to see the next card unless villain checks the one in every 10 to 20 flops that come up.

Keith: If you are betting with the intention of getting opponent to fold ....how is that betting for value ? betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

Eberetta1: I said: My intent is not to get anyone to fold, when I meant to say: My intent is not to get everyone to fold

Keith: Betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.
Eberetta1: I have encountered too many people who do not want to commit a lot of chips on the river. Good, they do not have to be there for the river. But if they called my bet on the flop and turn, I got some value that I may not have gotten if I checked the flop and checked the turn. So again, just because I bet or raise does not mean I always want my opponent to fold. Betting a checked flop preferring that no one folds can increase the pot size, which is all I am trying to accomplish most of the times that I raise, excuse me, or bet.
At other times, betting a checked flop with the intention of getting everyone to fold is exactly what I am trying to accomplish, especially against pre-flop raisers. Some days I am in no mood for a showdown.

Again, this overview is in response to answering GreatLeslie 's dilemma of How do you not lose money when raising most of the time preflop? I am assuming GreatLeslie has encountered an agro player and is trying to stay at the table but does not want to lose all their chips in the process.

i just wantedto add yu guys did a great job explainiing to OP the question he had asked.

NOTE TO ORIGNAL POSTER: I wasnt sure if anyone mentioned this, but pls download equilab or poker stove, i prefer equiab cause it has some reallly cool options you cann mess aroud with... GET IT

Originally Posted by eberetta1

Keith: Are you raising if he bets.
Eberetta1: No, I am folding 80 percent of the time and shoving 20 percent of the time.

pretty terrible advice if you are playing cash games deep , and likely bad in tournaments unless late stage and short effective stacks. you should be qualifying whether you are talking cash or mtts when you say that

Keith: Are you betting if he checks?
Eberaetta1: yes.

again thats a blanket statement , no consideration of whether its a wet or dry flop , how flop is likely to have hit your range and opponents range and no consideration of stack sizes.

Keith: You make no reference at all to flop texture.
Eberetta1: There is no need to reference flop texture. I believe OP is dealing with betting style of villain. Villain is playing maniac style and just wants get hero to fold a winning hand. If hero chases anything other than a made hand on the flop, it will cost dearly to see the next card unless villain checks the one in every 10 to 20 flops that come up.

did you actually read the OP?. the OP was about how he should be raising/calling his own hands and how to act when he missed the flop. Nothing at all to do with dealing with a maniac which makes the whole of your paragraph above worthless

Keith: If you are betting with the intention of getting opponent to fold ....how is that betting for value ? betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

Eberetta1: I said: My intent is not to get anyone to fold, when I meant to say: My intent is not to get everyone to fold

but you are now saying that you are betting a checked flop . why do you want to bloat the pot if you have air and you know that opponents will call the bet?

Keith: Betting a checked flop with the intention to get a fold but preferring that no one folds shows that you don't know what you are trying to accomplish.
Eberetta1: I have encountered too many people who do not want to commit a lot of chips on the river. Good, they do not have to be there for the river. But if they called my bet on the flop and turn, I got some value that I may not have gotten if I checked the flop and checked the turn. So again, just because I bet or raise does not mean I always want my opponent to fold. Betting a checked flop preferring that no one folds can increase the pot size, which is all I am trying to accomplish most of the times that I raise, excuse me, or bet.

bloating the pot with air gets you zero value unless you win the bloated pot or got the money in ahead which is unlikely if you have air.

At other times, betting a checked flop with the intention of getting everyone to fold is exactly what I am trying to accomplish, especially against pre-flop raisers. Some days I am in no mood for a showdown.

you do realise that you maximise your winning s when you win at showdown?. You should be looking to get your big hands to showdown with as big as a pot as possible. trying to get opponents to fold is missing value when yo have a big hand and not in the mood to get to showdown.

Again, this overview is in response to answering GreatLeslie 's dilemma of How do you not lose money when raising most of the time preflop? I am assuming GreatLeslie has encountered an agro player and is trying to stay at the table but does not want to lose all their chips in the process.

instead of assuming from a thread title , you might find it helps provide a sensible answer to the question if if you actually read the content of the OP.

Keith: Are you betting if he checks?
Eberetta1: yes.
Keith: again thats a blanket statement , no consideration of whether its a wet or dry flop , how flop is likely to have hit your range and opponents range and no consideration of stack sizes.
Eberetta1: No different than a person who limps every time with pocket Aces. Why give away any hint that I hit the flop or did not hit the flop?

Keith: trying to get opponents to fold is missing value when yo have a big hand and not in the mood to get to showdown.
Eberetta1: If there is only one opponent post flop, does it matter if villain calls my allin when an Ace, 5 9 flops and he calls with AK and I hit a set of 5's, or if I wait until the river to do an all in. Either way, if he calls my all in I get paid, and if he does not call my allin, I do not get paid. Will it really matter? Judgment Day is here. Either he has an Ace and he is going to call whether I do my all in postflop or river, or he does not have an Ace and the villain will fold whether I do my all in postflop or river. Of course, Keith, you and I know online that K will appear on the turn and another K on the river so that villain does a suckout.

Keith: instead of assuming from a thread title , you might find it helps provide a sensible answer to the question if if you actually read the content of the OP.
Eberetta1: excuse me, I also see in thread number 5 that GreatLeslie was also concerned by saying the following: how does this apply to post-flop play? If you haven't hit the board wouldn't people pick up on the fact you may have a weak hand if you check? Or should you always bet after raising preflop? Hence, my hanging around a discussion concerning pre-flop, post-flop, and showdown play to let him know how I approach the situation. I may have wrongly assumed that GreatLeslie was playing a maniac player, but hey, I consider any person who raises preflop with a quality hand to be a good player, a person who raises preflop with every hand a maniac player, and a player who is in 80 percent of all dealt hands to be an agro player. When I am driving down the road the difference between a good driver and an agro driver is a fine line. When I am driving down the road the difference between an agro driver and a maniac driver is a fine line. At the tables, I just am trying to find a way to make money off whichever type the villain is.

I really do not want to hijack GreatLeslie's thread. I have tried to answer some concerns with you Keith and it is good that GreatLeslie sees the back and forth. Hopefully, GreatLeslie's skill set lies somewhere between yours and my skill level. Then he gets a good all around idea of what will work and what does not work. Or he could choose his own ideas, or something in between. Good luck at the tables all.

Originally Posted by eberetta1

Keith: Are you betting if he checks?
Eberetta1: yes.
Keith: again thats a blanket statement , no consideration of whether its a wet or dry flop , how flop is likely to have hit your range and opponents range and no consideration of stack sizes.
Eberetta1: No different than a person who limps every time with pocket Aces. Why give away any hint that I hit the flop or did not hit the flop?

OP is here to learn . why keep advising him like a fish?.If you automatically bet when a flop is checked to you or fold if villain bets you are predictable and exploitable so that when they have a strong hand they can check knowing that you will bet and check call you down or check raise you.from your previous answer about people not calling river , its would be easy for a strong hand to call off your triple barrel bluff.if you bet every time someone checke to you people will notice and exploit it.

Keith: trying to get opponents to fold is missing value when yo have a big hand and not in the mood to get to showdown.
Eberetta1: If there is only one opponent post flop, does it matter if villain calls my allin when an Ace, 5 9 flops and he calls with AK and I hit a set of 5's, or if I wait until the river to do an all in. Either way, if he calls my all in I get paid, and if he does not call my allin, I do not get paid. Will it really matter? Judgment Day is here. Either he has an Ace and he is going to call whether I do my all in postflop or river, or he does not have an Ace and the villain will fold whether I do my all in postflop or river. Of course, Keith, you and I know online that K will appear on the turn and another K on the river so that villain does a suckout.

why justify your line with an example that is irrelevent as both people will likely get in it in anyway. how about when they have A2 and you have a set of fives on that flop. they aren't calling a shove then , but will call a cbet . that is the value you are losing with your approach.

Keith: instead of assuming from a thread title , you might find it helps provide a sensible answer to the question if if you actually read the content of the OP.
Eberetta1: excuse me, I also see in thread number 5 that GreatLeslie was also concerned by saying the following: how does this apply to post-flop play? If you haven't hit the board wouldn't people pick up on the fact you may have a weak hand if you check? Or should you always bet after raising preflop? Hence, my hanging around a discussion concerning pre-flop, post-flop, and showdown play to let him know how I approach the situation.

If you read the OP and then post #5 , you would realise that #5 is about how to continue having been the preflop raiser not facing the actions of a preflop maniac which your post was assuming.[/quote]
I may have wrongly assumed that GreatLeslie was playing a maniac player, but hey, I consider any person who raises preflop with a quality hand to be a good player, a person who raises preflop with every hand a maniac player, and a player who is in 80 percent of all dealt hands to be an agro player.
what a load of rubbish. Even the worst players can be dealt AA and raise it preflop, but just because you see someone raising a good hand doesn't make them a good player. A really tight nit may only play AA KK QQ and bet them or raise a previous bet preflop ( do you mean raise or bet here?) and only play 3% of all hands that doesn't make them a maniac but all you see them do is bet/raise and never call.
a player in 80% of all hands is a fish , pure and simple and is much more likely to be limping and /or calling raises . That is the complete opposite of an Aggro player.

When I am driving down the road the difference between a good driver and an agro driver is a fine line. When I am driving down the road the difference between an agro driver and a maniac driver is a fine line. At the tables, I just am trying to find a way to make money off whichever type the villain is.

what.....you are saying that theres hardly any difference between good , aggro and maniac drivers..... i'm glad i'm not driving on your roads if you think that.

I really do not want to hijack GreatLeslie's thread. I have tried to answer some concerns with you Keith and it is good that GreatLeslie sees the back and forth. Hopefully, GreatLeslie's skill set lies somewhere between yours and my skill level. Then he gets a good all around idea of what will work and what does not work. Or he could choose his own ideas, or something in between. Good luck at the tables all.

or he could actually get involved in strategy discussions and clear up a lot of the misconceptions that you have .

Many good things posted already but I think this is worth adding.

Sometimes you will lose money. You are supposed to lose money sometimes. If you don't feel you can CBet sensibly then that's probably one of the ~30% of flops you just want to let go.
Make money on the other 70% and you'll still be ahead.

I recommend including some strong hands in your check-the-flop range IF your opponents actually pay attention (which they may well not at the micro-stakes level.


If you never lose money then you are not doing it right.