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KeeKoLy
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04-02-2009, 04:57 AM
Post subject: How do you handle donk bets?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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I am not sure what to do most of the time when facing a donk bet....here is an example hand, how would you handle this?
In this hand villain was 50/0/1.5 over only 15 hands, so I don't think that can tell you much.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($3.05)
CO ($4.28)
HERO (Button) ($2.65)
SB ($2.94)
BB ($9.32)
UTG ($0.57)
Preflop: HERO is Button with 10 , A
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, HERO bets $0.14, SB calls $0.13, 4 folds
Flop: ($0.36) A, 10 , K (2 players)
SB bets $0.52, HERO???
Since I already know the result, I am influenced on what I should do, but in general when players donk after calling your PF raise, are you basing it mostly on their positon pre-flop? Their bet size? or a combination of both? It seems most players at this level have no clue what position is, so I don't think that can be much of a factor.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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If you call, you're technically committed, so do you think you can beat whatever opponent might hold on this flop?
Range: AA, TT, KK, AK, QJ, AT, air??? (looking like a WA/WB sort of situation) (Even though his 50% vpip has so many more hands, his aggression is so low this is very rarely a bluff.)
Equity: 20% to catch back up all of the time, ahead like 10% of the time, way the hell behind all the rest of the time.
Maximize: Fold.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I disagree with ragnar. Vpip/pfr takes far less hands to develop better reads than aggression. That said 15 hands is still too low for both. I really can't but AA/KK/TT/AK in his range though and I think Ax/FD/KT/worse hands/air are betting out more often because people like to slowplay. Either way you are committed but I think he has air a lot less often than other hands so I'd just get it in.
As for in general, I look at postflop tendencies. Since most unknowns/bad players slowplay I give their donks a lot less credit, especially if it's a minbet or close to it.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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pretty easy jam when you consider there's a distinct probability that he'd slowplay hands that beat us.
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
If you call, you're technically committed, so do you think you can beat whatever opponent might hold on this flop?
Range: AA, TT, KK, AK, QJ, AT, air??? (looking like a WA/WB sort of situation) (Even though his 50% vpip has so many more hands, his aggression is so low this is very rarely a bluff.)
Equity: 20% to catch back up all of the time, ahead like 10% of the time, way the hell behind all the rest of the time.
Maximize: Fold.
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At these stakes, I would put this guys range much wider here (before the donk bet), more like 22+, AJo+, A2s+ and even likely A7o+,KK+ and TT. If my range is close, I have 70% equity on this flop.
Maybe I just answered my own question, but seriously do you think the range you posted is realistic given what you have seen at this level? I would almost say even take KK+,AKo and AKs out since he did not 3bet me PF. This would only make my equity even higher.
After the donk bet I still think his range could be A2o+,A2s+Against that range, this donk bet doesn't mean much, he hit an A and think it's good.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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if you peg him as the type to slowplay AA, KK or AK PF, then what makes you think he's going to donk 3/2 when they hit big? i know that he still COULD have a monster because his play would be no less orthodox than anything else in his range, but i don't think you should be scared off with your two pair.
then again, big donk bets on scary boards are rarely bluffs, so you have to pray that it's something like AJ, AQ or Acxc (but even if these are the ONLY hands he would play like this then you're still beating most of his range, the problem is that no matter what he's probably going to still have decent equity against you in an all in situation)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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siltstrider
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 85
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So it would be incorrect to raise him? I suck at this game, but I feel like two pair would be enough to beat him since so many people at these stakes seem to play any ace. Am I wrong here?
Then again, I play on Cake, which I've heard is a little softer than most sites...
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siltstrider
So it would be incorrect to raise him? I suck at this game, but I feel like two pair would be enough to beat him since so many people at these stakes seem to play any ace. Am I wrong here?
Then again, I play on Cake, which I've heard is a little softer than most sites...
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I will tell you in this particular case I did raise him, and he called. Then he donked a boring looking turn too, and I put him all in, and he called with AQo and I won the pot. I should have shoved the flop though to his donk bet.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Torn between a call and moving in. Probably just move in.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
If you call, you're technically committed, so do you think you can beat whatever opponent might hold on this flop?
Range: AA, TT, KK, AK, QJ, AT, air??? (looking like a WA/WB sort of situation) (Even though his 50% vpip has so many more hands, his aggression is so low this is very rarely a bluff.)
Equity: 20% to catch back up all of the time, ahead like 10% of the time, way the hell behind all the rest of the time.
Maximize: Fold.
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what
don't tell me you never see AQ/AJ here
not to mention he's snap calling a shove with KT
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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See, you post a question, but then post an example hand thats a real edge case of the scenario you're asking about. Most donk-bets arent 1.5xpot.
To your general question, I tend to raise most of the time until I get a read.
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Just playing to improve.
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
See, you post a question, but then post an example hand thats a real edge case of the scenario you're asking about. Most donk-bets arent 1.5xpot.
To your general question, I tend to raise most of the time until I get a read.
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well your right, most of the time the donk bet is minimum, so i raise with air and they usually fold at these levels. Reason I posted this one is it was the one that was confusing!
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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FYI, at the micros there's only three reasons you'll see donk bets:
1/ Top purr, worrisome kicker
2/ Mono / two-tone / drawy flop, afraid of being drawn out (this is usually TPGK up to set in terms of strength)
3/ Idiot with no clue about extracting value (TP or overpair)
So (rule of thumb) if someone ever donks you on a two tone / mono board, they haven't got a FD, they're scared of one.
90% of all donk bets I see are protection bets, the other 10% being point 3 there OR a whiffer turned bluff. The dryer the board, the more inclined you should be to raise them back. On a drawy board, rep the scare cards.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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dont forget about draws and sets?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro?
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Torn between a call and moving in. Probably just move in.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Outlaw
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04-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Post subject: Re: How do you handle donk bets?
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#17 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
I am not sure what to do most of the time when facing a donk bet....here is an example hand, how would you handle this?
In this hand villain was 50/0/1.5 over only 15 hands, so I don't think that can tell you much.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($3.05)
CO ($4.28)
HERO (Button) ($2.65)
SB ($2.94)
BB ($9.32)
UTG ($0.57)
Preflop: HERO is Button with 10 , A
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, HERO bets $0.14, SB calls $0.13, 4 folds
Flop: ($0.36) A , 10 , K (2 players)
SB bets $0.52, HERO???
Since I already know the result, I am influenced on what I should do, but in general when players donk after calling your PF raise, are you basing it mostly on their positon pre-flop? Their bet size? or a combination of both? It seems most players at this level have no clue what position is, so I don't think that can be much of a factor. |
Snap shove the flop.
I thought this post was going to be about what to do when someone donks and you have air, like with AK. Common spot.
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KeeKoLy
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04-03-2009, 02:47 PM
Post subject: Re: How do you handle donk bets?
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#18 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
I am not sure what to do most of the time when facing a donk bet....here is an example hand, how would you handle this?
In this hand villain was 50/0/1.5 over only 15 hands, so I don't think that can tell you much.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($3.05)
CO ($4.28)
HERO (Button) ($2.65)
SB ($2.94)
BB ($9.32)
UTG ($0.57)
Preflop: HERO is Button with 10 , A
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, HERO bets $0.14, SB calls $0.13, 4 folds
Flop: ($0.36) A , 10 , K (2 players)
SB bets $0.52, HERO???
Since I already know the result, I am influenced on what I should do, but in general when players donk after calling your PF raise, are you basing it mostly on their positon pre-flop? Their bet size? or a combination of both? It seems most players at this level have no clue what position is, so I don't think that can be much of a factor. |
Snap shove the flop.
I thought this post was going to be about what to do when someone donks and you have air, like with AK. Common spot. |
It could be about that! In that case, I think what Luco says comes into play. Like I said, normally if they donl into me with a min bet (..02), I raise regardless and they usually fold, such as in an AK situation.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios |
This.
I don't automatically raise them, though. I try to figure out what draws are in their range and if my equity sucks vs that draw I fold. In this case they are doing you a favor by donking and defining their hand. If you connect you can raise for value against their range and if you don't, well.. they never waste your cbet. (since they never fold anyways)
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tanglelegs
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 25
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When i get up against a donk i sit back until i get a killer hand and try and bust him. They usually won't last long.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios |
This.
I don't automatically raise them, though. I try to figure out what draws are in their range and if my equity sucks vs that draw I fold. In this case they are doing you a favor by donking and defining their hand. If you connect you can raise for value against their range and if you don't, well.. they never waste your cbet. (since they never fold anyways) |
They're not necessarily doing you a favor
It's actually very difficult to deal with people donking with a balanced range
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios |
it depends on the villian. some donk like 70% of the time they see a flop, so their range has all sorts of wacky draws/pairs/garbage in it.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios |
it depends on the villian. some donk like 70% of the time they see a flop, so their range has all sorts of wacky draws/pairs/garbage in it. |
so... kind of like the hands people cbet with?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
dont forget about draws and sets?
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Sets falls under #3 I guess, idiot not understanding or caring that he'd get more value by allowing the pfr to bet again. And donking on draws isn't something I've seen enough to include, have you seen a lot of it then micro? |
you def don't see draws when they bet something like 2/3 the pot but i personally see it all the time with min bets to 1/2 the pot. in fact that's what i put them on in those scenarios |
it depends on the villian. some donk like 70% of the time they see a flop, so their range has all sorts of wacky draws/pairs/garbage in it. |
so... kind of like the hands people cbet with? |
Pretty much. Guess that's what I was trying to say, lol.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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