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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 04:08 PM     Post subject: How Do You All Avoid This #1 (permalink)  

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Ro_Joe
He's been playing passive all along. Chasing everything. How would you have played this. I put him on an Ax (little card). Damn high 2 pair keep getitng me in trouble when it doesn't look like trouble is there.

***** Hand History for Game 2077572489 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 20, 11:48:20 EDT 2005
Table Table 37571 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 8: Ro_Joe ( $54.15 )
Seat 2: merckx1111 ( $39.8 )
Seat 7: gcanaday ( $18.13 )
Seat 6: tgolds ( $58.05 )
Seat 4: Swagger ( $15.5 )
Seat 3: jakeRC ( $14.2 )
Seat 9: dpockets47 ( $19.5 )
Seat 1: Berza ( $30 )
Seat 5: justluck2 ( $23.75 )
Seat 10: CincyJoe ( $15.9 )
Ro_Joe posts small blind [$0.1].
dpockets47 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ro_Joe [ Ad 8h ]
CincyJoe calls [$0.25].
Berza folds.
merckx1111 calls [$0.25].
jakeRC calls [$0.25].
Swagger folds.
justluck2 folds.
tgolds calls [$0.25].
gcanaday calls [$0.25].
Ro_Joe calls [$0.15].
dpockets47 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 4d, As ]
Ro_Joe bets [$2].
dpockets47 folds.
CincyJoe calls [$2].
merckx1111 folds.
jakeRC folds.
tgolds folds.
gcanaday calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]
Ro_Joe bets [$8].
CincyJoe folds.
gcanaday calls [$8].
** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
Ro_Joe bets [$8].
gcanaday is all-In [$7.88]
Ro_Joe shows [ Ad, 8h ] two pairs, aces and eights.
gcanaday shows [ 8d, 8c ] three of a kind, eights.
Ro_Joe wins $0.12 from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and eights.
gcanaday wins $37.56 from the main pot with three of a kind, eights.
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UG
Old 05-20-2005, 04:14 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I fold that hand preflop. I know you're in the small blind, but the only thing you can hit here is two pair which is unlikely. If you do hit two pair you're not going to get away from it, but you could still be dominated (which you were).

What if you only hit your ace? Then you're probably out kicked. If you hit your eight you're probably against a higher pair.

No flush or straight possibilities unless something crazy happens on the board.

Fold preflop.


 
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Bezique
Old 05-20-2005, 04:23 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I agree, this is why weak kickers need to be avoided.

You hit a better hand than you can normally expect here and were a bit unfortunate with it, pocket trips are hard to spot coming. But rule of thumb you'll only likely be looking at one pair and then it can be very very hard to know if you have the winning hand or not.

There are much safer ways to make money than A8o.

Personally I don't consider the SB as a cheap call. what you gain in price is more than made up for with position in later betting rounds.
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 04:32 PM #4 (permalink)  

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All limpers on this hand. I only called with a limp in off the SB. If I hit 2 pair great. If I don't I go away.
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UG
Old 05-20-2005, 04:50 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Okay, at first you want advice, but now you're telling us why it's such a solid play?

The odds of you hitting two pair are 2.02%. That means 49 times out of 50 you're going to not hit two pair. Meaning you'll waste $7.35 for every ONE time you hit two pair on the flop.

I'm no math wizard...But even if you took somebody's $25 chip stack one time in four that you hit two pair (which, btw, you'd need to play this hand TWO-HUNDRED TIMES to do that)....you'd still have less money than you began with.

And this doesn't even count the times that you hit but somebody has a better two-pair or trips. Which, umm, btw, happened to you.


Again, FOLD PREFLOP.


 
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 04:54 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Not telling you it was a solid play George. Was only explaining why I did what I did. Your advice is well taken. You would throw it away and not even be in the hand for the resons stated. I appreciate that and fully understand the reasoning.

Thanks.
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UG
Old 05-20-2005, 05:02 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Sorry to come accross harsh, bro. I've seen this happen one too many times:

1) Original poster posts HH's looking for advice
2) People give sound advice
3) Original poster disagrees and explains why the play was really-really good

I see where you're coming from now. Hopefully you see where I was coming from too. Again, sorry for being a little edgy.


 
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 05:12 PM #8 (permalink)  

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NP.....had same had jus two minutes ago and laid it down. I guess the question I was really asking was.....if you on a calling station table, you do limp in from the SB and happen to hit, would you play the same way or just make a continuation bet if you get called?

Thanks again for the advice.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-20-2005, 05:40 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
How do I avoid something like this?
You don't.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 05:42 PM #10 (permalink)  

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Oh....that's not good 'rilla.
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Rondavu
Old 05-20-2005, 05:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I disagree with folding preflop here. Your getting 10-1 to call. A8 isn't a terrible limping pot hand. You have to keep relative strength in mind. The only possible hand that could dominate you here is a limping A9. AT or higher would have raised preflop most likely. One pair aces on the flop here gives you best hand a lot.

You limped with fantastic pot odds, hit two pair, and then got smooth called by trips. It's a bad beat. Don't stop limping with fantastic pot odds holding a good limping pot hand.

Even though it is risky and generally considered incorrect, sometimes I would actually RAISE this preflop on a passive table. I don't recommend it for everyone. The reason I do this is because I feel I have best hand at the moment regardless of my position. I would raise it 4-5x to trim the fat. That's just me. I enjoy the mental postflop game. Conditions would have to be perfect for me to raise this vulnerable hand however.

For most people I say limp it and attack weakness postflop when an ace pops. It's just very hairy 7 handed. I feel very uncomfortable multi handed after the flop.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-20-2005, 05:45 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro_Joe
Oh....that's not good 'rilla.
It's just one of those situations.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Khabbi
Old 05-20-2005, 05:52 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I would have folded that hand PF for the exact reasons that you got beat for.

1) Out of position.
2) Best possible hand is two pair, which is easily beaten.

You are out of position and leading the betting. There is no way that if someone holds trips that they are going to stop you from putting your chips in the middle. They keep calling as long as you keep throwing them away.

Two pair is too hard for me to get rid of, so I don't go looking for it. I'd rather have TPTK any day to two pair, but that just might be because of my inexperience. At least I know though where I am weak. I can work on that later, but for now I stay away from it when I can.
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 05:53 PM #14 (permalink)  

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'rilla or Rondavu....would you have bet it the same way as I did, or would you have done something else when he kept cold calling?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-20-2005, 05:56 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro_Joe
'rilla or Rondavu....would you have bet it the same way as I did, or would you have done something else when he kept cold calling?
Yes, except the river. Flush draws happen, but on the river you're probably only beating a flush draw or a stupid AQ. Checking and letting your opponent move is probably the best option. Though I don't believe you're folding to his AI without a read.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Rondavu
Old 05-20-2005, 06:03 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I probably would have also checked the river, because a smooth call after the turn would have thrown red flags at me. Limping pot, 7 handed increases the flopped set possibility exponentially. For me the only time you consider a set is if they give away their strength postflop or it's multihanded to the flop like this. I would have lost as much as you did anyway. I can't see myself getting away from two pair aces and eights on that board. That's just asking too much.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-20-2005, 06:29 PM #17 (permalink)  

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Ro_Joe
All responses have been great. Thanks everyone. I like the advice about checking the river and will use that in the future. The only reason I stayed in this pot at all was because the table was a bunch of limpers. I figured if I catch on the flop then I can check my options post flop. Exactly what I hoped would happen did. Top 2 pair. Just didn't see Mr. CallingStation having trips.

I like it when there a varying opinions. Makes for good conversation. Thanks again. By the way, I am also trying to play 2 pair much more cautiously after reading some of the other threads on here.
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evman150
Old 05-20-2005, 08:28 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Easy solution. Don't play ace rag offsuit from the small blind. Realizing and using this strategy saves A LOT of money.
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Vito_Corleone
Old 05-21-2005, 02:08 AM #19 (permalink)  

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Other than it being a semi-obvious fold PF, why weren't you rasing with it? I mean you had to think you had the best hand on the flop, i don't see why you were being so passive with it, ESPECIALLY with the flush potential out there.

I would have easily gone broke on this hand.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-21-2005, 02:25 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito_Corleone
Other than it being a semi-obvious fold PF, why weren't you rasing with it? I mean you had to think you had the best hand on the flop, i don't see why you were being so passive with it, ESPECIALLY with the flush potential out there.

I would have easily gone broke on this hand.
He was the bettor.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Cocco_Bill
Old 05-21-2005, 08:11 AM #21 (permalink)  
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I limp this hand every time from the small blind. No doubt.

A8s = net 30,8$

A8o (only play from blinds total 718 times) = net -10,38$, I've been losing 0.014$ per hand compared to my small blinds of mostly 0.25 and some 0.5 for this database.

So its very very close to break even and I would have evidently lost far more had I folded this hand for half price instead of playing it every time.

My biggest loser of all the Axo hands is A6o netting -102$ over 842 times played. that is -0.12$ per hand. So even the biggest loser of all the Ax is still worth playing for half price.
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Vito_Corleone
Old 05-21-2005, 08:08 PM #22 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito_Corleone
Other than it being a semi-obvious fold PF, why weren't you rasing with it? I mean you had to think you had the best hand on the flop, i don't see why you were being so passive with it, ESPECIALLY with the flush potential out there.

I would have easily gone broke on this hand.
He was the bettor.

-'rilla
Oops. Read it wrong. LOL.
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Greedo017
Old 05-22-2005, 05:01 AM #23 (permalink)  
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 i think you all are wrong on your criticism. folding preflop, maybe i may or may not call play the hand. but, once he has two pair, what two cards he has are irrelevant. this situation could as easily happen with ak and hitting two pair as it could with A8.
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allLiving
Old 05-22-2005, 06:31 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Completing the SB is a no brainer here. Play it like you got the nuts on the flop man, very rarely are you gonna be beaten with top two pair...

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IJGrieve
Old 05-23-2005, 12:23 PM #25 (permalink)  

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No way would I have folded that from the small blind in an unraised pot--as rondavu says, there's a good chance you're holding the best hand at this point.

I would have struggled to get away from this hand as well--the guy was just calling, and I probably would have put him on a bare Ace without good data (e.g. showdown seen % < 10).

Only possibility of saving a bit of dosh here that I can see--how about check-raising the turn here. From the position you were in it seems quite an obvious move (I'm no pro, mind). You check, he probably bets, you raise. If he re-raises you've got to start to smell a rat.
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biondino
Old 05-23-2005, 12:43 PM #26 (permalink)  
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He wouldn't re-raise, though, he'd just call your raise, so you're left none the wiser. Except for the knowledge that whatever you do, he's happy to let you do it, which should be a worry.

His $8 call on the turn would have worried me most here. Why isn't he put off? If he's a regular fish, as you seem to imply, then an $8 raise is enormous. Which means either he thinks you have AA (prob not, as you haven't bet like you had it) or JJ (maybe) or he thinks he's got the nuts - either way, he's happy to risk it.
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Ro_Joe
Old 05-23-2005, 03:08 PM #27 (permalink)  

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Ro_Joe
Obviously a division of "fold it preflop" cause A8o is a suck hand in early position verses "complete the SB" and then play it. I think the thing I learned here is to play a little more cautiously when somebody is just smooth calling. I was going to loose money on this hand. It could have been less with a check on the turn or river. Once I made the $8 bet on the turn and he called I thought he probably had an Ace. I will tend to check the river and see what he does from there in the future. At least I don't loose quite as much.

Plan to play 2 pair closer to the breast as I am seeing more opportunities for losses there.

Thanks to all who provided feedback. I find the varying opinions on how to play a hand interesting and its what makes this game exciting.
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