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CTorode
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06-06-2007, 11:33 PM
Post subject: How do I shortstack profitably?
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 57
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For our purposes, i have a limited bankroll, say 20$ and i want to build it up. The lowest stakes on my particular site are .05-.10 NL Hold'em. The minimum buy in is 2$ and i want to be able to shortstack profitably and build my bankroll into a decent number where i can then play my standard poker game. Any tips for low stakes shortstacking? Thanks for everyones help.
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kettleofish
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
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Only play QQ, KK or AA, maybe AK if you are feeling fruity. And ram all your chips in PF hoping someone calls. If you get lucky you may double up a few times...
Playing cash games short-stacked is rubbish.
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There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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one orbit will be 7% of your stack. This is not going to work for you. Short stacking effectively would require at least 40BB, so you need to sit with $4 at least and don't play sweet. Hit TP and push with only premium hands AK AQ AJ KQ KJ and high pockets. Forget about trying to hit sets with low PP's since you won't have a stack big enough to see a flop in raised pots and have odds.
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CTorode
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 57
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Well is there a better way to build a bankroll say lowes tstakes are 10 NL and i have 20$? Do i play 1$ + .25$ SNGs? If building my bankroll playing 1.25$ SNGs do I play 9-person SNGs or 45-person SNGs....or maybe the 90-person SNGs that take several hours for 20$ profit max?
Basically what im saying is, how do i build a bankroll with limited funds if I cannot transfer funds to Stars or some place with low stakes?
I'm on FT by the way
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I'm sorry, but to all the haters: you're wrong.
You can short-stack effectively with 20BB. That's how I made my first $1200 off of a $25 deposit.
To answer the question, CT, if I can find it, I'll post the semi-short-stack-cash guide I wrote up back when it was my thing. This was a couple of years ago, so I don't know exactly how much it applies to today's game.
Until then: Play extremely tight, and play aggressive.
In pots where it is folded to you always raise (3xBB) with the following: From early position, only play JJ+/AK. From middle position, add in AQ, AJ, and 88+. From late position, add in AT, A9, KQ, and all pocket pairs.
In pots where you have one or more limpers in front: From EP play same hands; raise 3xBB plus 1BB for each limper. From MP raise AQ; limp all pocket pairs (for set value). From LP, raise AJ and TT; limp remaining pocket pairs (for set value).
In pots where it is raised before you: From EP, reraise AA/KK. From MP reraise QQ+/AK. From LP reraise QQ+/AK if the raise came from early position; reraise TT+/AQ if the raise came from middle position or later. Your reraise will always be a shove. Also, the tighter the raiser, the tighter your reraise range (don't reraise with TT if you don't think it is ahead of the range your opp is raising).
From the blinds, call a single raise with any pocket pair (for set value).
Any time you raised preflop, bet 2/3 pot on the flop if it is checked to you. If it is bet, then shove when you think you are ahead and fold when you think you are behind.
Aside from the set value plays mentioned above, do not ever draw to anything.
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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I have no doubt that you can buy in for 20bb and make a profit at a fishy 10l table. Jeffrey's strategy above sounds good to me. You might go busto if you only have $20 though.
Apparenty there is a shortstack strategy detailed in Ed Millers Getting Started in Holdem, but I haven't read it myself. I imagine its fairly similar to the above.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
I'm sorry, but to all the haters: you're wrong.
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Jeff, I think your being a little harsh.  I just mentioned that he may want to play with a little more in his stack. I am interested in whether this is a viable option and would be willing to discuss the merits of hand and plays at such a low buy in (20BB). Do you feel that sets are a worthy hand to attempt playing for i.e. calling a 4 BB raise with 20BB's holding 22, 33 or 44. It is obviously going to be a push/fold style game and playing 20BB's deep means no FE. So you are only pushing with TP type hands.
Another thing for OP to consider, is once you get 10 or 12 BB's do you stay at the table or move on? When do you decide to keep your profits and rebuy at another table. Starting with 20BB and doubling up would require a change in gears, would it not? And what about top ups? Do you recommend toping up immediately after the blinds,and when calling raises? Playing as short as 20BB's would require you to top up almost every orbit at leastr once or twice. this strategy will require a lot of concentration and patience. it will be tough mentally and working 300 or 400 hands to double a couple times, only to get stacked twice can be very tiring. Lets give the OP all the info he needs if he's seriously going to try this.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
I'm sorry, but to all the haters: you're wrong.
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Jeff, I think your being a little harsh. I just mentioned that he may want to play with a little more in his stack. I am interested in whether this is a viable option and would be willing to discuss the merits of hand and plays at such a low buy in (20BB). Do you feel that sets are a worthy hand to attempt playing for i.e. calling a 4 BB raise with 20BB's holding 22, 33 or 44. It is obviously going to be a push/fold style game and playing 20BB's deep means no FE. So you are only pushing with TP type hands. |
Your original post said that he could not make money this way and that 40BB stacks were a minimum. That statement is wrong. There's nothing harsh about it - it's merely the simple truth. Money can be made if you alter your game correctly. As to the question at hand, no, it would not be profitable to call a 4BB raise with a low pocket pair for set value. It would be profitable to raise them for set + FE value in pots that are folded to you.
And yes, you would be playing a mostly push/fold style. That's why we're playing only hands that hold up well at showdown. You have FE against some players this way, but the fact that you're playing good cards and most players end up calling you down light tends to increase the profit potential. Once I had that $25 up to $400 or so, I started my $20 sessions of $100NL by pushing one crappy hand specifically to show so that my nittiness would be paid off afterwards (but there's no reason to do this at the $10NL level!).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Another thing for OP to consider, is once you get 10 or 12 BB's do you stay at the table or move on? When do you decide to keep your profits and rebuy at another table. Starting with 20BB and doubling up would require a change in gears, would it not? And what about top ups? Do you recommend toping up immediately after the blinds,and when calling raises? Playing as short as 20BB's would require you to top up almost every orbit at leastr once or twice. this strategy will require a lot of concentration and patience. it will be tough mentally and working 300 or 400 hands to double a couple times, only to get stacked twice can be very tiring. Lets give the OP all the info he needs if he's seriously going to try this.
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These are very good points. My strategy was not to leave when I had doubled up. Rather I kept playing my TAG game. There's not too much of an adjustment needed really. You're just playing good cards aggressively.
When I was doing it, I didn't top off. It never occurred to me at the time. Now I can't speak for sure as to whether it would be more valueable to do so or not...the drain on your BR would be pretty noticeable, but the difference in profit potential seems vast too.
I think it's actually a bit easier to play short than it is to play deep. You have fewer decisions playing short. You never have to evaluate draws or pot odds. You just play preflop and on the flop trying to get in with the best of it.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Another note: I believe that such a limited BR does hurt you in one respect. You may have spots where you need to pass up on a +EV play (by the odds) to conserve funds - much like in a tournament it is correct to pass up slightly +cEV spots to conserve your chips.
That is another reason why you don't draw. Even the draws that are +EV are going to cost you too much in the short term to be worth it on your limited budget. And unlike well bankrolled players, it is hard for you to become potstuck. If you are reasonably sure you are beat, it might not be right to call just because you're getting good odds on a bet.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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with such a limited roll i´d suggest playing micro sng´s rather than cash games. i build a roll with very limited funds myself and grinded my way up playing $1 and $2.5 sng´s.
i have no doubt, shortstacking micro cash tables can be profitable using the adequate strategy, but i think there´s more money in sng´s at these stakes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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CTorode
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 57
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Update: I did go busto yeasterday....the variance caught up to me...every time I would get my money in good, I got drawn out on.....this happened about 7 times and what was left of my BR is now nothing.
Shortly I will be getting a laptop and I will have a friend of mine stake me and from then on I will build my starting BR playing SNGs as per XTR's suggestion. Hopefully everything goes ok with that. I figure i need 150-200$ to be Bankrolled for 10$ NL am i right?
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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My comment was going to be: if you really haven't got more than $20 are you sure you want to risk it gambling? I'm not convinced being staked will be good for you (or your friend) but yes, you are now adequately rolled for $10NL. Next time, take $50 and play microstakes - but if you can't even afford that, seriously consider your approach to risk and whether it's compatible with playing for real money.
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CTorode
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 57
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Its not that i cant afford 50$, or even 200$, its that i have no credit card or any wa yof putting it online. The only way i can get money online is by freerolls, or having someone with money already online transfer to me. That is why i cannot go to a different site. All of my buddies play FullTilt and the freerolls on Stars are ridiculous.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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http://donkeydevastation.com/ contains a very detailed shortstacking guide
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CTorode
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 57
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What a gem.....thanks euphoricism
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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gl winning your half a bb per 100.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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LOL's at the HH for may 23rd on donkeydevistation.
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