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dev

02-08-2009, 12:29 AM Post subject: How to become a poker player

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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How to become a poker player:

Deposit $20-$50 online.
Play some ring games, lose money to those stupid donks that call everything.
Play a few sngs and play way too tight in the end to ever get first place.
Go broke.
Keep depositing small amounts and losing until you get lucky one night and build your $50 deposit into $900 and proceed to lose it to some donky that called your preflop raise with 33 and flopped a set on your aces. If these fish stop getting lucky you could do this for a living.
Find a site on the internet with advice about agression and bankroll management. Ignore it.
Deposit $100 and play $25NL because you're already good enough that you don't need 20 buyins.
Post your bad beats on the forums and ask questions like, should I stop raising preflop and just wait to see what the flop brings?
Make rediculous hero calls and remember them when they work and forget them when they don't.
Lose more money.
Online poker sucks, play at the card room.
Put $100 down on the $1/$2 game and played scared. Win $30 or $40 and be proud of yourself.
Try to repeat with more confidence and lose lots of money to loose donkys.
Meet people and get into local tournaments.
Learn how to play bad from people who've been doing it for years.
Watch rounders and decide to read super/system.
Skip to the NL chapter and skim thru it, feel like superman.
Play way too loose agressive for the smaller games and get beat on by tighter players.
Win a local tourney or two with all that newfound agression.
Go back to the casino and play tight. You can't lose what you don't put in the middle.
Watch your stack shrink with the rake or time payments. Think, "Gee, online had less rake, right?"
Deposite another $100, you're serious this time, tight play and a bankroll.
Buy into the $25nl game with $10. Lose it to a bad beat and rebuy full. Realize you just went broke again.
Post online and ask what went wrong. Don't listen when they tell you about 20 buyins. You're better than that.
Put another $200 online and play $50nl. The better players at this limit wont be calling with all that garbage.
Fuck online. They're probably cheating anyway.
Get back to the casino. Buy in for $200 this time, those guys online said deep stacked means more EVs or something.
Double up early. You're killing these guys, order a jack straight up.
Damn, lost it all to that tight guy with the aces. Hit the ATM, you can get it back, there's only one decent player at that table.
A few drinks later, take your last $40 to the bar upstairs with the video poker and the free drinks...
No more playing drunk, I'm serious this time. The guys online were right, it's not the other players, I'm fucking up on my own.
Play more $1/$2 at the casino. Win a few sessions. Damn, this isn't much money, lemme check out that $2/$5 game.
Go broke again. Good thing you have a job, I didn't when I went thru all this shit.
It's the variance thing they were talking about. Why didn't doyle tell me about that in the book?
Buy ToP and give up reading 3 pages in.
Deposit another $100 to play $10nl with. Do what the guys online say, get tracking software.
Go on monkey tilt and lose almost your whole roll.
Go back and see what you did wrong.
Decide to play with 20 buyins.
Start learning to play poker.
Become a player.

Check out my self-deprecation here!

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

swiggidy

02-08-2009, 12:45 AM

#2 (permalink)

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lots of words with no spaces

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Stacks

02-08-2009, 01:16 AM Post subject: Re: How to become a poker player

#3 (permalink)

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1) Realize that you suck.

2) Ask for help.

3) Listen to what other better individuals tell you.
3a) - Fuck the tone in which they say it with. Focus on the message/advice!!!

4) Absorb the information.
4a) - Latch onto the nuts of a better player if you can.

5) Think about the game on your own.

6) Study the game on your own.

7) Talk to others about what you studied.

8) Repeat #2 - #7

9) Realize #1 will always be true.

10) Profit.

dev

02-08-2009, 01:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I have a friend who insists that the most fun you can have playing poker is when your rent money is on the table. I tell him that the most fun is actually paying your rent with money you won playing poker. So he says stuff like, "You know what I mean" and I say stuff like, "You don't know what I mean." I started writing this for him, but at some point I realized it's not going to help him, so I just posted it here.

He sent me this video:
http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/35769

me:
10 buyin MINIMUM for a casual player is good, but 20 for going pro is just reckless.

friend:
Taking shots though
10 buyins- theres a good chance u go broke ar some point

me:
yeah but the caveat that everyone is going to miss with that wonderful selective hearing all new players have is that he said once you take your shot, at a good game, you move back down
about the 10 buyins... that's a minimum, if you go below 10 you move down in limits.

friend:
Haha.
Yep

Oh i thought it said
"Tilt off 2/3 of your roll in a game above your head, then put the rest on a blackjack table in a desperate attempt to break even on the day"

me:
dude that video is gonna get a lot of people broke :P
especially online... you need a higher roll online because the edge is significantly smaller

friend:
Dont forget the final step not listed in the video
Get drunk as fuck at the video poker bar with ur last 40 dollars and try to decide whether to go down and get a job at the local olive garden the next day, or try calling some exes to try to scrape together a short roll of borrowed money

me:
i sense an article coming on...

friend:

"Poker life: the real deal"

Hehe "lie to ur mom about some fake ass car repairs to try and get a G"

Check out my self-deprecation here!

bjsaust

02-08-2009, 02:09 AM Post subject: Re: How to become a poker player

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Buy ToP and give up reading 3 pages in.

lol

Just playing to improve.

Illfavor

02-08-2009, 02:44 AM Post subject: Re: How to become a poker player

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

4) Absorb the information.
4a) - Latch onto the nuts of a better player if you can.

Are your nuts currently occupied?

Ich grolle nicht...

swiggidy

02-08-2009, 02:49 AM Post subject: Re: How to become a poker player

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

4) Absorb the information.
4a) - Latch onto the nuts of a better player if you can.

Are your nuts currently occupied?

nom nom nom

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Illfavor

02-08-2009, 02:52 AM Post subject: Re: How to become a poker player

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

4) Absorb the information.
4a) - Latch onto the nuts of a better player if you can.

Are your nuts currently occupied?

nom nom nom

Yours would work too

Scratch that -- Presence of Teboner detected.

Ich grolle nicht...

swiggidy

02-08-2009, 04:55 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

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IRC usually for either

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Robb

02-08-2009, 05:09 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Epic post, dev.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Kijjo

02-08-2009, 07:30 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

all the good nuts are taken!

Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator

Sir Pawnalot

02-09-2009, 07:18 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Norway

Posts: 668

I am thankful I never had to go through this. I lived in South Africa (IM Norwegian by the way) without internet connection and studied the game for two years before I played my first poker hand.

Luckily I found out by myself that Super System was not good strategy for beating micro...

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

AFchung

02-09-2009, 09:02 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

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wow 5 spades. this post is awesome

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

dranger7070

02-09-2009, 09:10 PM

#14 (permalink)

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dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

I want to latch onto a reg's nuts...

Stacks

02-09-2009, 09:31 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Plenty of good nuts in irc imo.

dranger7070

02-09-2009, 09:39 PM

#16 (permalink)

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*cries* I HATE macs when it comes to software like this lol. I really need to look into getting Boot Camp or Virtual PC SOON

dev

02-09-2009, 10:17 PM

#17 (permalink)

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dranger: http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/mac/

So many of my posts get nom nom nom responses. I don't even have a big breasted avatar.

Check out my self-deprecation here!

dranger7070

02-09-2009, 10:24 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Thanks dev!

Micro2Macro

02-10-2009, 12:38 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Hahahaha...I think I've been through some of these steps before. Fortunately I'm on the second last step now

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

FriskyPirate

02-10-2009, 03:11 AM

#20 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

Send a message via Yahoo to FriskyPirate

How to become a poker player:
1) play 200,000 hands
you won't be noob anymore. to be a pro golfer you go to the range. to be a pro basket ball player you do hoops. to be a pro boxer you spar. to be a poker player online...play poker lots

How to become a pro poker player
1) play 1,000,000 hands per year

Stacks

02-10-2009, 04:41 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

meh.. I disagree. Obviously playing a large volume of hands won't hurt, but if you are making mistakes the majority of the time, then you won't improve. To have a perfect jumpshot, you practice it. But you don't do it underhanded.

At 100nl/200nl there are plenty of players that I routinely play against that play >1mill hands per year. This does not make them fundamentally sound at poker. They aren't the biggest fish in the pond, but they have glaring leaks. On Stars, they are referred to as fpp pros, because they basically break even or close to it, and only profit through the bonus/milestones they get from putting in so many hands.

If you aren't studying/learning/reading away from the tables you are seriously affecting your ability to grow as a player. I can easily say the majority of my "enlightment" moments (aha moments, etc) have occurred away from the tables, and I'm sure most people here will say the same.

02-10-2009, 06:42 AM

#22 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

putting in hands doesn't make you better
studying the game makes you better

this is why some people will never be good

FriskyPirate

02-10-2009, 07:05 AM

#23 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

tiger woods age 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s

Howard Lederer quote..."you've got to work it out on the table"

Micro2Macro

02-10-2009, 07:12 AM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

tiger woods age 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s

Howard Lederer quote..."you've got to work it out on the table"

You've got to know what your working on

02-10-2009, 07:24 AM

#25 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

tiger woods age 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s

Howard Lederer quote..."you've got to work it out on the table"

there's a difference between completely mental games and mechanical games

and I don't mean "mechanical" as in moving
for example, I consider checkers to be very mechanical because a lot of "reading" is practice through playing

same thing with StarCraft where the people who practice 16 hours a day beat the people who play 8 hours a day
but how come some people who have been playing poker for 15 years recreationally are bad calling stations? it's not practice, it is how much you know

if what you know is "I don't raise aces preflop because I'll lose a big pot or win a small one" does practice help you?

FriskyPirate

02-10-2009, 07:30 AM

#26 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

I agree there are bad players of everything...tennis, poker, starcraft, foosball, golf...who have been playing 20 years +. But when you isolate the best and fastest way to improve at ANY sport or competition...mental or physical, it is doing that sport repetively.

You don't read how to become a good golfer and you don't read how to become a good chess player BUT there are hundreds of books on both subjects and these books can accelerate your learning. But nothing is more powerful than doing the task.

You get good at poker...playing poker.

Stacks

02-10-2009, 08:29 AM

#27 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Practice isn't worth shit if you are doing it incorrectly. Learn to do it correctly, then practice it.

You can play all the hands in the world, but if you don't know why your logic of calling with 72o is wrong, then the hands you are putting in are not going to improve you.

dranger7070

02-10-2009, 09:41 AM

#28 (permalink)

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Dude frisky, it ain't worth it man, just let it go. These guys are dead nuts accurate in what they are saying. Sure, play ur 1 million hands a year, but you should routinely go over them, looking for leaks, spotting what you could have done differently in a certain situation, etc. THAT is what truely makes a pro.

Robb

02-10-2009, 11:52 AM

#29 (permalink)

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I had a piano teacher once who said: "Practice doesn't make perfect." She said this instead:

PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

02-10-2009, 12:32 PM

#30 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

No you don't
have you ever heard of a particular player called fgators?
1.2 million hands... down $28,000+

Sir Pawnalot

02-10-2009, 02:17 PM

#31 (permalink)

Full House

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Agree with iopq there. Following the same line of reasoning as Frisky my grandmother should be a better driver than me. I really hope your reasoning is wrong.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

FriskyPirate

02-10-2009, 03:32 PM

#32 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

rank in order of importance the factors necessary for becoming a better poker player:

-reading and posting to forums
-reading poker books
-watching instructional videos
-hours at the table(s)

I'm happy to change my statement to "hours played" vs "hands played" if it will make people happier. Great athletes, businessmen, competitors outwork the competition...always have, always will.

Outlaw

02-10-2009, 03:54 PM

#33 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

I hope every player in the world sees that video and takes its advice.. that way once I am rolled for the midstakes and move up, I can take their "shot-taking" money off of them on a daily basis.

Stacks

02-10-2009, 04:38 PM

#34 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Are you still saying that hours at the table is the most important factor? If so, then I guess you are set in your ways and don't really care to much to come over to the light side. Even though you are massively incorrect here in my honest opinion.

But I will give it one last chance. You state that extraordinary players MUST, and DO, outwork the competition? I concur that is is apparent as it is in any sport. However, it appears you still think hours at the table is the most important and best way to outwork the competition. I propose to you this. Is a bad player spending time on a forum asking and answering every possible question he can, in an actual attempt to better himself (and not just waste time)? Is a bad player spending hours upon hours of watching videos and reading strategy articles trying to totally rework they logic in which they use in certain situations so that it can become a more +ev situation in the long run? Or are they at the table playing many different hands absolutely incorrectly and losing money, only to spend more time at the table instead of turning to sources that will teach them why they play those hands badly?

So yeah, you have to outwork them, but that does not mean you simply have to put in more time than them at the tables. You have to put forth more time towards improving, and it so happens, time away from the tables can be more enlightening than time at the tables.

CasalRoyal

02-10-2009, 05:06 PM

#35 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Brasil-DF

Posts: 88

I´m impressed this thread became serius!
Did it?
5 spades!

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...yal-22528.html

Robb

02-10-2009, 05:47 PM

#36 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,068

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Following the same line of reasoning as Frisky my grandmother should be a better driver than me.

I lol'd

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Outlaw

02-10-2009, 07:02 PM

#37 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Agree with iopq there. Following the same line of reasoning as Frisky my grandmother should be a better driver than me. I really hope your reasoning is wrong.

Old people have the lowest insurance rates because they are the safest drivers.. so bad example, but still funny lol

To me its like trying to rob a bank safe without tools; you work at it all night but in the morning you are busted.

Sir Pawnalot

02-10-2009, 07:39 PM

#38 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Norway

Posts: 668

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Agree with iopq there. Following the same line of reasoning as Frisky my grandmother should be a better driver than me. I really hope your reasoning is wrong.

Give me racetrack- ill show her!

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

dev

02-11-2009, 09:36 AM

#39 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: swonging and swonging

Posts: 1,550

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Study long, study wrong!

Get drunk, go broke a lot, (don't) read theory books.

damn nubs don't know nothin...

Check out my self-deprecation here!

Keith

02-11-2009, 01:18 PM

#40 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,335

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Look up tomastomast on fulltilt at sharkscope. Currently down $125K at 10K games

OhBollocks

02-11-2009, 01:35 PM

#41 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Dublin

Posts: 240

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Following the same line of reasoning as Frisky my grandmother should be a better driver than me.

I lol'd

Yeah, this is gold

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.

Stacks

02-11-2009, 02:04 PM

#42 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Look up tomastomast on fulltilt at sharkscope. Currently down $125K at 10K games

10K games != 1million. Check back later.

kettleofish

02-11-2009, 02:31 PM

#43 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Helllllo Richard

Posts: 333

LOOOOL, -51% ROI after 11000 SnGays, that is reeedic.

There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.

02-12-2009, 12:24 AM

#44 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Look up tomastomast on fulltilt at sharkscope. Currently down $125K at 10K games

10K games != 1million. Check back later.

it's around 300K hands according to my database

Micro2Macro

02-12-2009, 01:20 AM

#45 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: http://three-pair.com/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Look up tomastomast on fulltilt at sharkscope. Currently down $125K at 10K games

10K games != 1million. Check back later.

it's around 300K hands according to my database

Do you realize if you spent all the time you reserve for going out of your way to prove someone wrong doing - - - -

Forget it. You're too full of yourself to bother listening.

FriskyPirate

02-12-2009, 02:05 AM

#46 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

from the interview of Leatherass in the well:

Willietherock
Could you briefly outline an average poker playing week for you in terms of no. of hours playing, no of sessions, lenght of sessions ect?

Leatherass
I probably play about 12-15 different sessions that last 2-5 hours each. I usually spend 4-7 hours a week studying

Phil153
How much of your success was natural intelligence/aptitude, and how much was hard work?

Leatherass
I would say that it was 25% talent and 75% hard work. Truthfully it may be even less talent wise. It took me a lot of hands to get where I am at. But there is no substitute for hard work in this game or really anything in life.

JimmyRare
I want to be better than you, what does it take?

Leatherass
Work hard. And when you think you've been working hard, go work some more. That's how I got there.

Tucanjo
How is your routine of playing (how many hours and how many cores)? And studying?

Leatherass
90%+ play and 5-10+ studying

02-12-2009, 02:18 AM

#47 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriskyPirate

Look up tomastomast on fulltilt at sharkscope. Currently down $125K at 10K games

10K games != 1million. Check back later.

it's around 300K hands according to my database

Do you realize if you spent all the time you reserve for going out of your way to prove someone wrong doing - - - -

Forget it. You're too full of yourself to bother listening.

huh
I had PT open so I checked how many hands I play per SNG and it was around 30
although he doesn't JUST play HU SNGs which is what my sample consists of

bjsaust

02-12-2009, 02:38 AM

#48 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

This thread got long and weird, but just to chime in on what I think the discussion currently is. Micro or someone said it, putting in hands is good, but you need to know what it is you're practising. Theres a balance, just theory wont help and just playing wont help.

Just playing to improve.

Revolver123

02-12-2009, 04:00 AM

#49 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2008

Posts: 123

I want to say that there is stuff learned through trial and error even if you are keep practicing with the wrong knowledge.

For example, if you keep playing ace rag and there's an A on the flop and you bet big only to get beat by AJ+ eventually you will realize that Ace rag just isn't worth it. (at least I hope one would.)

jimmyallin

02-13-2009, 04:29 AM

#50 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 31

FriskyPirata quote: meh.. I disagree. Obviously playing a large volume of hands won't hurt, but if you are making mistakes the majority of the time, then you won't improve. To have a perfect jumpshot, you practice it. But you don't do it underhanded.

I totally agree with you. I started back in December and thought my best chances to win where to play many tables, but I kept getting confused, couldn't read the players, and almost gave up trying to learn the game. Then, I cut my cards in half and have had some good wins.

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