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HeAVyB101
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03-04-2009, 07:10 PM
Post subject: HoCG interesting concept
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 93
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I just got Harrington on Cash Games on my lunch break and while reading the first chapter I came across this concept I never thought of before and I hope you find it useful. Food for thought....
"Fold or bluff with your weakest hands. Folding weak hands is obvious. Choosing your weakest hands for bluffing might not be so obvious, but the basic idea is that if you bluff with a weak hand and the bluff works, you've gained value from a hand that had none. If you pick a hand with some value (like a medium pair) for bluffing, but then get raised off the hand, you've lost value with a hand that had some to begin with."
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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standard imo
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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ABCD theorem.
I would just like to point out one thing. You don't really want to bluff all that often with your absolute worst hands, because they have relatively little value when called. You generally want to pick a range that while you are sure it's behind their calling range, it does have some equity when called (such as backdoor draws, overcards, etc).
For example, if I called preflop IP with 44, and the flop comes Q73tt, and villain cbets. Raising here may be profitable (and might be correct); however, when called you have relatively little equity (2 outs). However, if you have a hand like 45 or 43 then you now have a bit more equity 4-6 outs or so. It doesn't have to work as often.
While you do want to form a bluffing range, remember you do also have to fold at times.
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Although I force myself to do this, I always get nervous at times, feeling like I'm losing money when I can save it by not bluffing and just folding shit hands. How do I get over that? What's the thought process or mentality that I have to instill on myself?
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xpaand
Although I force myself to do this, I always get nervous at times, feeling like I'm losing money when I can save it by not bluffing and just folding shit hands. How do I get over that? What's the thought process or mentality that I have to instill on myself?
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It obviously depends on the situation, villain, etc. Against some villains you will form a bluffing range that is relatively wide because they have a tendency to fold. Against some villains you will have a very narrow, or even non-existent, bluffing range because they just do not fold.
This is the same for every situation and every range. Against some villain's ranges TPTK is the nuts, and you bet/bet/bet get it in. Against others, TPTK isn't worthy of 3 streets of value. So obviously depending on the villain you tailor the range in which you value bet/raise, call, fold, or bluff.
And also remember that just because you have a hand that would typically fall into your bluffing range (say a backdoor flush, or gutshot, or whatever), you don't have to bluff with it. You evaluate the situation and if you feel it will be +ev, then you can do it. If you don't feel he will fold often enough, or you won't have enough equity when called to make up for the times when he doesn't fold, then bluffing would be -ev, and you shouldn't do it.
The thought process you need to instill isn't "I have a hand in my bluffing range I have to do it, even though I would rather fold". You should think more along the terms of "I have a hand in my bluffing range. Against this particular villain will I get the desired result often enough to be profitable?".
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Wow that was VERY helpful Stacks.
Without the use of a poker tracker, what's the best way to figure out my opponent's general folding range? From my experience in the $2NL, surprisingly, I haven't seen too many hands. People come and go to quick to get quality reads on an opponent. And I hate basing assumptions on one or two plays.
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xpaand
Wow that was VERY helpful Stacks.
Without the use of a poker tracker, what's the best way to figure out my opponent's general folding range? From my experience in the $2NL, surprisingly, I haven't seen too many hands. People come and go to quick to get quality reads on an opponent. And I hate basing assumptions on one or two plays. |
Well tbh, I think not having some form of tracking software nowadays is kinda retarded. I mean, you have like a 30 (or maybe 60) day free trial with PT3. And then a 15 day free-trial with HEM. I'm sure that in ~2+ months you can acquire >$55 in poker profit, and can then buy the software you desire.
But without stats, you have to just base villain's ranges on reads/assumptions/gameflow/situation. This will help form a starting range for villain preflop. Then just eliminate hands from his possible range based on actions you see him take. It's hard for me to come up with an example because it's so situational dependent.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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As a general rule, people at microstakes dont fold. Start there and adjust appropriately.
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Just playing to improve.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
As a general rule, people at every stakes dont fold. Start there and adjust appropriately.
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fyp.
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Well tbh, I think not having some form of tracking software nowadays is kinda retarded. I mean, you have like a 30 (or maybe 60) day free trial with PT3. And then a 15 day free-trial with HEM. I'm sure that in ~2+ months you can acquire >$55 in poker profit, and can then buy the software you desire.
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Yeah I know about those free trials, but I wanted to get some more intermediate poker knowledge before I used those. I don't think it would help me to use those at the moment. I'm currently reading my second poker book (and the first one that's actually good and not for complete beginners), so I want to learn all the theoretical / mathematical concepts first.
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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xpaand, i think that's a good plan, having a HUD can be distracting and sometimes misrepresentative of how people are actually playing. developping your game to a strong basic level first is +EV imo
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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A HUD does nothing more than help outline villain's tendencies. You still must learn how to correctly interpret the information that a HUD is giving you and apply it, as you must do with any information that you are given in poker. You should still be taking notes on villains, forming reads, etc. In a game of limited information, your edge increases with any new information that becomes available. So take the information that a HUD can give you, combine it with the information you pick up through observation, and use them both.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Also, a HUD isn't the only thing that tracking software comes with. You can easily study your tendencies, your villains tendencies, among other things and better find, identify, and fix your leaks, while learning to better exploit the leaks of your villains.
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ArcadianRock
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 295
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I would prefer to use Tracking software for myself rather than for others if it came down to it. They aren't playing to win me money I am so I come first.
I don't use trackers myself but that's because I'm poor and if I use my poker winnings I'll have about $2 to work with so once I get up a bit or a birthday comes around I'll get PT.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock
I would prefer to use Tracking software for myself rather than for others if it came down to it. They aren't playing to win me money I am so I come first.
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ldo. It's obv better to find your leaks here and fix them than the leaks of just a few opponents.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock
I don't use trackers myself but that's because I'm poor and if I use my poker winnings I'll have about $2 to work with so once I get up a bit or a birthday comes around I'll get PT.
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There are free trials.
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xpaand
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Well tbh, I think not having some form of tracking software nowadays is kinda retarded. I mean, you have like a 30 (or maybe 60) day free trial with PT3. And then a 15 day free-trial with HEM. I'm sure that in ~2+ months you can acquire >$55 in poker profit, and can then buy the software you desire.
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Yeah I know about those free trials, but I wanted to get some more intermediate poker knowledge before I used those. I don't think it would help me to use those at the moment. I'm currently reading my second poker book (and the first one that's actually good and not for complete beginners), so I want to learn all the theoretical / mathematical concepts first. |
After reading Stacks post I broke down and downloaded Pokertracker and man it is awesome. I used to use Poker-Edge before I read all the post about it on this site, and Pokertracker is so much better. Definitley worth the download, if only to check your stats and see where you are leaking money. Just a little advice though---- make sure to clear out any games that are not Holdem out of your hand history before you import hand history. If you leave Omaha or Horse tournaments in there it will take a long long time.....
I only mention it because I think it will really help you get to where you are trying to go.
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Decision making - When decisions are not based on information, it's called gambling
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Ugh, I really can't wait to download PokerTracker. It's just that I think it'll be a waste to download it at this point because I know I have MANY leaks. Once I can minimize them to a certain point, I think PokerTracker will have a better use for me by refining my game, instead of pointing out obvious and embarrassing leaks that could have been helped by merely reading/studying a bit more.
Do you think I'm wrong Stacks? Do you think that PokerTracker will help me fix my mistakes sooner?
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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to OP: if you are interested in this idea, spoonitnow explains it in a particular way using a toy game in his blog. I suggest you read it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xpaand
Ugh, I really can't wait to download PokerTracker. It's just that I think it'll be a waste to download it at this point because I know I have MANY leaks. Once I can minimize them to a certain point, I think PokerTracker will have a better use for me by refining my game, instead of pointing out obvious and embarrassing leaks that could have been helped by merely reading/studying a bit more.
Do you think I'm wrong Stacks? Do you think that PokerTracker will help me fix my mistakes sooner?
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Well, I think this is a legitmate concern. However, tracking software is at a very reasonable price. The small-stakes version of HEM is only $55. So while it may be larger than your BR it's still not that much in terms of absolute money really.
And regarding the leaks, you seem to know you have a lot of leaks, which is obv understandable (we all do). Do you know what those leaks are? Are you limping too much? Are you calling too much? Not raising enough? Not valuebetting thinly enough? Not seeing enough showdowns? Seeing too many showdowns? Spewing postflop? If your unsure, a decent sample size loaded into a tracking software will be relatively easy to analyze and give you answers to alot of those questions.
I mean you may feel you are limping too much, but because you aren't keeping accurate tabs on the actual %, you may be limping WAY more than you should. Same for calling. Tracking software will be able to tell just how much you are doing such things, and it can then be compared with how better winning players stats are, and analyzed.
Also, it's just so much nicer for study purposes to have a program in which you can go back and use filters in which you can search for hand histories easily. It will help in finding hand histories that represent meaningful spots that you are unsure in. Which can then be posted on here. Instead of having to rummage through a folder of raw hand histories.
And FFS, it's a free trial!
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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K thanks Stacks. I think I'll get PokerTracker and post up the results when I get to 5K hands (I think that's the limit for the trial). As for where my leaks are, I'm not exactly sure. I'm just unsure of some decisions I have to make.
I'm one of those people who just wants the best of whatever I purchase. So, I'll probably buy PokerTracker 3 which is $89.99. And with the exchange rate as it is, in my not so valuable Canadian currency, that's like close to $120. Which is 4 times my current BR haha. But I know I can't look it at that way, cause a one time $120 fee will probably benefit me by thousands of dollars in the next few years (hopefully I get to higher stakes by then). Is that the one that you use Stacks? And btw. Thanks again for all the info and I'm glad you convinced me to use up the trial sooner than later.
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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I use Holdem Manager (HEM). I believe the small stakes version is $55, which allows you to important as many hands as you want up to 50nl. Hand histories above 50nl won't be important into HEM until you have bought the larger stakes version (which is just $30 more on top of the $55). Imo, HEM is miles ahead of PT3, but both are very helpful.
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