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Hobbies vs. Monies

  
 
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 11:59 AM     Post subject: Hobbies vs. Monies #1 (permalink)  
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 Comparing FTR Money players to FTR Hobby players isn't like comparing apples and oranges. More like apples and walruses.

Two different viewpoints joined around a common interest, sort of like...
...shiites and sunnis,
...Ohio State and Michigan football fans, or
...Palin and Biden.

Money players are black "Sumatra" coffee, rugged and substantive. Hobby players are low-fat whipped-cream skim-milk frapichinos, the frothy anti-substance.

Hobby players feed on the wild manic-depressive mood swings of poker luck. Money players are emotional flatliners.

Money players are bread and butter. Hobby players are cupcakes and frosting.

Hobby players think of poker as unserious, unimportant fun. For money players, winning at poker is serious and important and (maybe) fun.

Money players work on their game. Hobby players work at their jobs.

Actually, the relationship between money and hobby players is like doctors and viruses, with the one trying to eradicate the other "for the good of mankind," or at least the good of FTR-kind. And the "gaming authority" is all on the side of the money players who win consistently and work hard to improve. They have the knowledge and perspective to win. The hobby players happily acknowledge the adults while enjoying the frivolity of the poker sandbox.

FTR money players think differently. Apples to walruses different. Here's an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I'm not picking on anyone in particular with this because I honestly don't know anyone who specifically fits the description, I'm just throwing this out there: if you've been at any level 10nl or lower for 100k hands you need to find a new fucking hobby, like seriously. The following is why:

You aren't working hard enough at getting better to get more out of this game than you're going to end up putting into it, and I don't mean just money.

So seriously, even if it is just a hobby, get on the fucking ball. Know what I mean?
This statement is ridiculous on its face. If poker is a hobby, concepts like "getting on the ball" and "aren't working hard enough" have no meaning. Spoon's a money player. A good one. He thinks long view, making money, maximizing EV. But he's clueless about what drives a hobby player.

Or maybe not. 'Cuz here's the greatest thing about hobby players. Some of them, especially the FTR kind, grow up into money players. One day, they think, "Hmmm...what if I made ten bucks an hour doing this hobby...I play 10 hours a week, that's...math sucks...math sucks...something like $500 a year. Maybe I could study a bit, work a bit, ya know?"

A quick shout out to all the hobby players - life is good, amiright? I've enjoyed my last year of having a poker hobby. But some day (maybe) you have to grow up, take the gloves off, get serious, and play the chips that "commit" you.

For me, today is that day.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Biglines
Old 10-16-2008, 12:18 PM #2 (permalink)  
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When you say "today is that day", does that mean that you are now making more time for poker? How is your commitment changing?
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daven
Old 10-16-2008, 12:33 PM     Post subject: Re: Hobbies vs. Monies #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Actually, the relationship between money and hobby players is like doctors and viruses, with the one trying to eradicate the other "for the good of mankind," or at least the good of FTR-kind.
the more viruses the better, at my tables! but i guess i expect that anyone taking the time to post/ask questions on FTR wants to become a doctor... (or at least masters qualified and part of acadaemia!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
what if I made ten bucks an hour doing this hobby...I play 10 hours a week, that's...math sucks...math sucks...something like $500 a year.
missed a zero?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
but some day (maybe) you have to grow up, take the gloves off, get serious, and play the chips that "commit" you.

For me, today is that day.
don't play the chips that "commit" you. Not ever. Bankroll management means you're never committed. Hell, a year ago and one current buyin was my whole roll - and never in that year have i played chips that commit me, i hope never to do so.
anyway, best of luck!
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 12:45 PM     Post subject: Re: Hobbies vs. Monies #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
what if I made ten bucks an hour doing this hobby...I play 10 hours a week, that's...math sucks...math sucks...something like $500 a year.
missed a zero?
Math sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
but some day (maybe) you have to grow up, take the gloves off, get serious, and play the chips that "commit" you.

For me, today is that day.
don't play the chips that "commit" you. Not ever. Bankroll management means you're never committed. Hell, a year ago and one current buyin was my whole roll - and never in that year have i played chips that commit me, i hope never to do so.
anyway, best of luck!
Perhaps a flawed metaphor, but you get the point.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 12:48 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
When you say "today is that day", does that mean that you are now making more time for poker? How is your commitment changing?
It's attitude. It's playing money-style in the hours I have. It's committing to studying and working as a routine part of my poker playing. It's quitting with excuses, getting "on the ball."
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daven
Old 10-16-2008, 12:49 PM     Post subject: Re: Hobbies vs. Monies #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Math sucks
this math grad got pwned by that math grad!

Advice? move to full ring and make easy monies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
\It's playing money-style in the hours I have. It's committing to studying and working as a routine part of my poker playing.
when i got back from SA last year i was broke and didn't feel much like working. Nothing like playing $5nl for rent to start playing "money-style"
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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Chopper
Old 10-16-2008, 01:22 PM     Post subject: Re: Hobbies vs. Monies #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
A quick shout out to all the hobby players - life is good, amiright? I've enjoyed my last year of having a poker hobby. But some day (maybe) you have to grow up, take the gloves off, get serious, and play the chips that "commit" you.
robb, i love you, man, but i completely disagree with this part. you just contradicted the shit out of yourself and admitted you are NOT an orange, but an apple. a med student, if you will, starting to eradicate the viruses. and, good FOR YOU, for making the change best for your situation.

therefore, you have spent time in the beginning of your post saying the two types of people think completely differently. that one is no better than the other. then, you tell us hobbyists to "get serious" and to "grow up?"

your quote AND spoon's, while possibly accurate, just insulted the shit out of the hobbyist that "life is good" for.

and, just because a player has no desire to climb out of the micros doesnt make him a "hobbyist," in the derogatory sense in which you are using it. the notion that it is criminal to enjoy microstakes poker is a complete fallacy. and, utter arrogance by those who actually BELIEVE it to be so.

some of us dont have the time, energy, DESIRE, to work on our games hard enough to move up. and, why is that wrong? some of us, like yourself, have families/responsibilities that take away from poker. and, some of us like it that way.

so, yes, LIFE IS GOOD for the profitable hobbyist. and, yes, we've all done the math to riches. but, some of us are not going to reprioritize our responsibilities/desires to become an "apple." some of us dont mind being walruses.

...and, there's nothing wrong with that.

ps. and, i love you, man. no offense intended. it just rubbed THIS walrus the wrong way.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 01:31 PM     Post subject: Re: Hobbies vs. Monies #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
A quick shout out to all the hobby players - life is good, amiright? I've enjoyed my last year of having a poker hobby. But some day (maybe) you have to grow up, take the gloves off, get serious, and play the chips that "commit" you.
no offense intended. it just rubbed THIS walrus the wrong way.
Yeah, I worried some might take it wrong - that's why I put the MABYE in that statement. Some of us start out with poker as hobby and stay that way. That's cool. The money players ought to respect that, and for the most part I think they do (though some exceptions do exist ).

I was happy with that hobby mindset for a year. But after a while some hobbyists decide to try to develop a money mentality. I wanna do it. I wanna change in mindset toward MY OWN poker - no one else's. And if any hobby players feel slighted by the OP, I apologize. That's not what I was trying to do.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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jyms
Old 10-16-2008, 02:56 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 The only difference between hobbyists and money players should be the time at the tables. The numbers are the same. Pot odds, implied odds, ranges and whatever else are constants in this game. Even hobbyists are in the game to compete.

Don't even start trying to convince anyone that any of you are hobbyists and hanging around FTR outside of the commune. There is not a person on this forum that wouldn't want to play $100/$200 NL if they had the BR and could beat the game. Nobody, not even a self proclaimed "walrus" wants to play micros. We do it because we know we have to. Everybody on this forum wants to at least get a$5K BR and play $200NL or $10/$20 limit and make a few withdrawals to buy something nice. That makes you a money player, with excuses.

What spoon says is true. Poker is about money, there are other places for hobbyists to spend there time, and a site that is full of players trying to beat the games is not one of them. Face the truth, and make a decision.
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 03:09 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
Poker is about money...face the truth, and make a decision.
Spoken like a true money player.

Jyms, I enjoyed poker for a year without any of the goals you mentioned. I even studied poker (when I studied) without those goals.

Hobby players can have whatever goals they want. Of course, we all prefer winning to losing, but we spend hundreds of dollars a month on entertainment: shows, golf, video games. Breaking even and playing dozens of hours of poker a month is fine for many folks.

I just disagree that hobby players are money players with excuses. They are poker players with a different outlook.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Biglines
Old 10-16-2008, 03:25 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I dont think playing poker as a hobby stops you from taking it seriously. The purpose of the post just confuses me a bit
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 04:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
I dont think playing poker as a hobby stops you from taking it seriously. The purpose of the post just confuses me a bit
Sorry, I just recently changed my outlook and my reasons for playing poker. If you don't like the premise (like Jyms doesn't), that you can play poker for reasons other than making money, that you can enjoy poker for other reasons, then this won't make much sense to you. But then, you probably have the right mentality to be successful at poker :P
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sarbox68
Old 10-16-2008, 05:25 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Have to jump in here 'cause, well, I rarely stfu... and Robb, u know I got big respect for you bro...

I have absolutely zero intention of ever becoming a professional poker player. Not gonna happen. No interest. Zip. Nada. Bupkis (got that one from my obv american jewish wife...).

I also have no intention of making my money fighting, playing guitar, bass or saxophone, running, painting houses, video games, reading great american novels, writing not so great american novels and telling crappy jokes.

However, I spend significant amounts of time doing all of the above 'cause they are my hobbies. And I would rather not suck at any of them, 'cause they are my hobbies (and at least with the first one, getting your ass kicked consistently, well, just hurts....) I want to get better, will get better as I spend more time about it, and will absolutely never, ever lose sleep about the speed in which I am progressing on my journey of betterness.

I reserve my sleep loss to things that are not my hobbies... my job, my family, my soon to be kid, my bills, my retirement, blah blah. Some of which are fun. Some of which are not. And I worry about them anyway.

But all of my hobbies are fun, which is why I do them. And there lies the distinction.

So with poker I will of course work to get better. Faster than some, slower than a few. And will measure my progress in how much money I win. Jyms is absolutely correct - I'd play $100NL if I was rolled for it, sincerely believed I had the skill to do so and I could still have fun doing it. I'm not, I don't and going busto isn't much fun... so I don't.

But who knows? If I keep working at it and the sh!t's still fun a few years from now, I might have the $20K bankroll that would let me play $100NL for I am the hobbying nit.
 
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Chopper
Old 10-16-2008, 05:53 PM #14 (permalink)  
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obviously, we all have different definitions of "hobbyist" and "monies." thats why this is a great discussion.

apples (jyms, spoon, robb (now), pros, et al) would say that "if you play seriously, you are not a hobbyist no matter how much you play for."

oranges (sarbox, myself, etc) say, "i will go where i go, within reason, so long as i continue to ENJOY the journey."

sar hit it on the head, imo. its the enjoyment. if i dont want to play poker today, i wont. i dont HAVE to for my bills. therefore, its my hobby....what i do in my spare time....no matter how much time that is, no matter which level i play.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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spoonitnow
Old 10-16-2008, 07:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 The trap that a lot of people set for themselves is to subscribe to the belief that it's acceptable to be mediocre at something you choose to do just because you aren't pursuing a career in it. Whether this is okay or not doesn't really matter -- it doesn't change the fact that it's still a trap that will keep you from improving.
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sarbox68
Old 10-16-2008, 07:47 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The trap that a lot of people set for themselves is to subscribe to the belief that it's acceptable to be mediocre at something you choose to do just because you aren't pursuing a career in it. Whether this is okay or not doesn't really matter -- it doesn't change the fact that it's still a trap that will keep you from improving.
Awww... come on dude! Being mediocre is mandatory for some activities... where would be fun be in karaoke or balloon art with real skill?
 
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 07:52 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The trap that a lot of people set for themselves is to subscribe to the belief that it's acceptable to be mediocre at something you choose to do just because you aren't pursuing a career in it. Whether this is okay or not doesn't really matter -- it doesn't change the fact that it's still a trap that will keep you from improving.
Awww... come on dude! Being mediocre is mandatory for some activities... where would be fun be in karaoke or balloon art with real skill?
This made me LoL

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jyms
Old 10-16-2008, 07:56 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"? My point was that playing for fun is just that, but you don't pursue the knowledge and skill in other "hobbies" like people do here. You don't tilt at other hobbies like you do at poker. Being a member of a poker strat forum changes a lot of what you guys are trying to prove is not really true. Nobody is coming to FTR to increase their "fun", they are trying to increase their skills and BR.
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Chopper
Old 10-16-2008, 08:21 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
You don't tilt at other hobbies like you do at poker.
i take it you dont play golf?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
Being a member of a poker strat forum changes a lot of what you guys are trying to prove is not really true. Nobody is coming to FTR to increase their "fun", they are trying to increase their skills and BR.
too much of a generalization/technicality. i practice basketball to get better. i play pick up games to get better. i discuss recipes in cooking forums to get better. i play spades for fun with some friends....for money...and have read numerous "strat" articles there. and, being a member of a poker forum GREATLY increases the fun/sense of community, as well as provides practice/knowledge.

start charging a membership fee to FTR and see what happens to all the "hobbyists."

by increasing my skill/bankroll, i am having more FUN. but, it doesnt change the fact i still consider them hobbies.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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sarbox68
Old 10-16-2008, 08:34 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"?
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-ce...lloon-art.html

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next question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
Nobody is coming to FTR to increase their "fun", they are trying to increase their skills and BR.
... because I'm not gonna have fun for very long if I keep losing money. I get your point Jyms - I just think (IMHO) poker and making money go hand in hand... it's the reason I don't play "play money" tables and will never, ever watch baseball unless I got a bet going... They just go together.

It's not like poker is inherently stimulating (i.e. Starcraft, Gears of War or BurgerTime). It's 7 little pictures of cards, a pile of fake chips and some really retarded chat (usuall involving dildos, donkeys and other people's mothers...)... The ONLY thing that makes poker fun is winning, and the only way to do that is get good enough to win... then it's all about degrees and the drive to pursue those degrees is the difference between hobbiest and pro.
 
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Muzzard
Old 10-16-2008, 09:30 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"?
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-ce...lloon-art.html

I iz K337... complete w/ 639 posts...

next question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
Nobody is coming to FTR to increase their "fun", they are trying to increase their skills and BR.
... because I'm not gonna have fun for very long if I keep losing money. I get your point Jyms - I just think (IMHO) poker and making money go hand in hand... it's the reason I don't play "play money" tables and will never, ever watch baseball unless I got a bet going... They just go together.

It's not like poker is inherently stimulating (i.e. Starcraft, Gears of War or BurgerTime). It's 7 little pictures of cards, a pile of fake chips and some really retarded chat (usuall involving dildos, donkeys and other people's mothers...)... The ONLY thing that makes poker fun is winning, and the only way to do that is get good enough to win... then it's all about degrees and the drive to pursue those degrees is the difference between hobbiest and pro.
owned
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swiggidy
Old 10-16-2008, 09:31 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The trap that a lot of people set for themselves is to subscribe to the belief that it's acceptable to be mediocre at something you choose to do just because you aren't pursuing a career in it. Whether this is okay or not doesn't really matter -- it doesn't change the fact that it's still a trap that will keep you from improving.
<nods head>

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I personally never do anything without the intention of getting better at it. Whether or not I succeed is a different story.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 09:45 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 Just sayin' that I used to be skim milk frapichino, now I'm gonna be black coffee. No more cupcake Robb at the poker tables. I was okay just breakin' even for a year. No I'm not.

And Sarbox, that site was really freakin' amazing!! Absolutely incredible work there, imo.
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sarbox68
Old 10-16-2008, 09:58 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Just sayin' that I used to be skim milk frapichino, now I'm gonna be black coffee. No more cupcake Robb at the poker tables. I was okay just breakin' even for a year. No I'm not.

And Sarbox, that site was really freakin' amazing!! Absolutely incredible work there, imo.
Old Robb...



New Robb...



gogogogogogogo!!
 
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JinxT4
Old 10-16-2008, 10:10 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"?
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-ce...lloon-art.html

I iz K337... complete w/ 639 posts...

next question?
POTD.

Also, gl with getting serious Robb. Judging by your posts that I've read, you seem like you do a LOT of thinking about your game, so I think if you just put in the hands, you'll do well.
[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
 
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Robb
Old 10-16-2008, 10:10 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 Thanx
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bjsaust
Old 10-16-2008, 11:31 PM #27 (permalink)  
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I consider myself a hobby player, but you bet your ass I'm in it for the money. If nothing else, if I do well enough at this hobby it can fund my other hobbies.
Just playing to improve.
 
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d0zer
Old 10-16-2008, 11:48 PM #28 (permalink)  
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daven
Old 10-17-2008, 12:33 AM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
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if I do well enough at this hobby it can fund my other hobbies.
this, one of my hobbies is not working. Cool if this poker hobby could fund that hobby huh?
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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triumphant cracker
Old 10-17-2008, 01:10 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Straight

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!!
Posts: 184
triumphant cracker is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Have to jump in here 'cause, well, I rarely stfu... and Robb, u know I got big respect for you bro...

I have absolutely zero intention of ever becoming a professional poker player. Not gonna happen. No interest. Zip. Nada. Bupkis (got that one from my obv american jewish wife...).

I also have no intention of making my money fighting, playing guitar, bass or saxophone, running, painting houses, video games, reading great american novels, writing not so great american novels and telling crappy jokes.

However, I spend significant amounts of time doing all of the above 'cause they are my hobbies. And I would rather not suck at any of them, 'cause they are my hobbies (and at least with the first one, getting your ass kicked consistently, well, just hurts....) I want to get better, will get better as I spend more time about it, and will absolutely never, ever lose sleep about the speed in which I am progressing on my journey of betterness.

I reserve my sleep loss to things that are not my hobbies... my job, my family, my soon to be kid, my bills, my retirement, blah blah. Some of which are fun. Some of which are not. And I worry about them anyway.

But all of my hobbies are fun, which is why I do them. And there lies the distinction.

So with poker I will of course work to get better. Faster than some, slower than a few. And will measure my progress in how much money I win. Jyms is absolutely correct - I'd play $100NL if I was rolled for it, sincerely believed I had the skill to do so and I could still have fun doing it. I'm not, I don't and going busto isn't much fun... so I don't.

But who knows? If I keep working at it and the sh!t's still fun a few years from now, I might have the $20K bankroll that would let me play $100NL for I am the hobbying nit.

i couldn't have said it any better than you.....way to go sarbox.
 
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flomo
Old 10-17-2008, 01:14 AM #31 (permalink)  
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Full House

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
flomo will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"?
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-ce...lloon-art.html

I iz K337... complete w/ 639 posts...

next question?
POTD.

Also, gl with getting serious Robb. Judging by your posts that I've read, you seem like you do a LOT of thinking about your game, so I think if you just put in the hands, you'll do well.
agree

completely awesome
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Protect dog
 
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:56 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by flomo
Quote:
Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
How many balloon art or Karaoke forums do you post over 600 times on and discuss skill with better "hobbyists"?
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-ce...lloon-art.html

I iz K337... complete w/ 639 posts...

next question?
POTD.

Also, gl with getting serious Robb. Judging by your posts that I've read, you seem like you do a LOT of thinking about your game, so I think if you just put in the hands, you'll do well.
agree

completely awesome
:lol: agleed
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